25 Pigeons in one bedroom Apt. in Manhattan

[Dovena]

In terms of the criteria that Trees Gray mentions in her guidelines regarding releasability, can you tell me if Las Vegas is a pigeon-friendly environment? Also, are there many hawks or falcons or other birds of prey there? Because another of her criteria is whether the birds are white or bright or an unusual color that would attract raptors. Most of them are indeed unusual in color or color pattern, or are white or mostly white.

Thanks.

[pdpbison]

Hi dovena,


Far as I know, few-to-very few Raptors here who would prey on Pigeons.

It is a a city which is mostly indifferent to it's resident Pigeons.

The ferals are hardy and good looking and mostly healthy as far as I can tell.

Some of my wild flock members are in excess of ten years old that I know of...

I feel it is not a cushy life for them here, certainly, but they manage.

It is hot in the Summer, can get below freezing in the Winter, and overall, there is not a great deal for them to eat.

As for your situation...

Obviously you are very careing and wishing to provide for them, and, this will have been a good beginning for you, your adventure so far...

You just need to brush up a little more on their Natural History, and, on those forms of husbandry which, while not obligeing them unto conspicuous domesticity, would never the less qualify as benign and judicous management or overseeing matters for their benifit.

One must do this of course whenever one is to be in any kind of relationship...Lol...

Be it spouse, offspring, parents, neighbors, friends or other...or, as one may anyway, so...it is no different with Pigeons, except we can have a little more say-so on Pigeon matters than some of the others.

Flocks, no matter where they roost, or scatter somewhat in their roosting, essentially manage themselves in deference to the balance of factors their judgement recommends.

In an artificial situation such as your appartment, their usual territories and grazing fields and sense of proportion is not the same, nor, will be their judgement.

My own sense of these matters does not recomend domestication, beyond some modicum of intervention for those Babys or injured or ill Adults, whom I might offer my attentions to, pending their release unto their Wild bretherin's domains.

Long ago, my own home-roosting flock evened out at about 30 Birds, and I will say, that was a handfull...! These Birds would not have anything to do with 'people' unless those people were 'in' my little house.

if in the back yard, forget it! You or anyone but me would never be able to pick oe up pr pet them or have them land on your shoulder and so on.

They were wild Birds who happenned to have a roosting territory in which I was a familiar co-habitant and benovelent 'Uncle'.


But as they all flew every day, young adults females tended to go off to make a life elsewhere sometimes, or younger males, senseing the approximatly terminal threshold of occupation of the ammenitites, elected simarly to seek elsewhere to find their fortunes.

This was fine, natural and fitting...

They have their own sense of balances and judgements when allowed to make choices, so...

One possibility, would be for you to look into not so far away options, where hobbiests and Pigeon feeding people similar to me, might be able to offer a decent safe area of localle for yours to be released, even if a few at a time, unto some wild flock or other.

My own fliock here has various colors of Birds in it, from escaped magician's or Wedding Pigeons, old escaped fancies of various kinds, and who knows what else.

One of my Babys presently, whom I am raising, from a different feral flock, has wonderful feathered Toes, for example...

But...

Where, the person would have some way to keep and feed them indoors for a while, and or for you to keep mated pairs together for this person to keep together, for those mated pairs to be able to decide some new place to make their Nest and so on...and to woo them into appreciating the new localles gradually...

Otherwise, especially any of yours who have mates and have made Nests, just might make the flight 'back', and be pacing at your window ledge, wanting to get back in.

They can, and they will do this!

No matter that these are not per-se.... "Homers"...

Lol...

Put your thinking-Cap on, we will help too...

Up State New York or Deleware or something, will certainly be an ideal situation for them to be acclimated a little, wooed to think of someplace new as 'home', and, be released to assimilate and be welcomed into a wild flock...

A few Car trips, some fun, and you are 'done' and will have done the good-deed for them.

Now...

How to find that 'right' person...?

Close enough to you so the Birds do not get any climate shock or tiresome travel logistics...


Hmmmmmmm...

Let's all think on that some more...

If you can locate rehabbers or various Vets even, in other more rural yet somewhat ajascent areas of your localle, you might be able to get some recommendations from them, as to people they know, who might be candidates to investigate for helping you.

It would be so much easier and pleasant I think for you, and for the Birds, if something closer could be found, that would satisfy the needs of the Birds to be assimilated into wild healthy flocks in some nice area.


Love,

Phil
Las Vegas

[TAWhatley]

Perhaps Doris Booth on the Resources list could help in some way .. http://www.pigeons.com/prd.htm

Terry

[Dovena]

So I take it, Phil ("pdpbison"), that you have changed your mind about accepting some or all of my birds? Because of the shipping and/or difference in climate? Please confirm that this is what you are saying.

[Maggie-NC]

Dovena, sometimes you just have to "bite the bullet" and do what is right for the pigeons. We have 42 pigeons right now, give or take one or two, and the majority of them are laying eggs. It wouldn't take long before our aviaries were so overcrowded that it would be bad for the pigeons and for us. If you have so many in the situation you are in, caring for them becomes a chore instead of a labor of love and that is to the pigeons' detriment. Each and every egg we have to remove brings sadness but it is something that has to be done.

You mentioned contradictory information. I guess you could call it that to some extent but you have to keep in mind that not much research has gone into establishing standards for the care of pigeons. We all have our different methods but you can develop new methods that are better than the ones you have been using simply by listening to people who have tried different things that work. To me, that is just using common sense. It is amazing what I have learned in just three months by being in this forum and I have been rehabbing pigeons for 12 years. To me, the info you've been given is not contradictory - everyone agrees that you need to either separate the males and females or throw out the eggs.

If the pigeons are in an apartment by themselves, do you have someone who could care for them if you get sick or injured? For your sake do separate the birds. I really wish you good luck because you obviously have a loving heart to be doing all this for your birds.

[Dovena]

I check in on the flock in my apartment two or three times a day: morning, lunchtime, and at dusk. I change their water and that sort of thing. Make sure the food is fresh. Try to clean up after them, although it is impossible to do this in any sort of thorough way, what with working and having to stay elsewhere now. The apartment has only a living room and a bedroom, and there is a female pigeon who is used to having the bedroom all to herself. If I place all of the other females in the bedroom, I don't know how she would handle with that, when she fought with one bird who accidentally sneaked into the room once. You know, someone in this group advised me to remove the eggs belonging to a brother and sister who had mated, because there was a risk of birth defects or what-have-you, and I did force myself to remove the eggs and replace them with dummy eggs. But the brother and sister are continuing to sit on the eggs, although they seem to realize that the eggs are overdue for hatching, and they appear to be stressed by this. Now I hate myself not only for stealing their eggs -- which, for all we know, just might have hatched into chicks that were perfect -- but also for keeping the siblings captive so that they choose to breed with each other where they probably would not, otherwise. But, know what? All of this self-flagellation is pretty unproductive. In keeping the birds indoors, I protect them from poisoning and other dangers. Predators steal the birds' eggs. That's called "predation," right? I try to protect them from all the things that they would never want to happen, and I have succeeded somewhat. However, because the environment in which they live is unnatural and confining, I have also created for them other stresses. Thank you for your support. Where there's a will, there's a way, but my life now is so hectic what with the job and the birds and living far away from them and checking in on them several times a day like this. It is hard for me to be able to check out places where I could house them, either nearby or out-of-state with people from this group.
No one is helping me. I do it all myself. It's pretty hard. Overwhelming, I will admit. If I didn't love them, I could not have hung on this long.

[pdpbison]

Hi dovena,


Ohhhh, dovina...you are not listeining very well...or are too anxious to do so.

These things can happen. I am like that myself sometimes.


I have made no inference about 'changing my mind'...

All is well...

I am trying to help YOU think, trying to help YOU assay various possible solutions which have various merits to them, for you to weigh, for you to think about and explore...

You can 'just' ship the Birds to me, of course!

...but, at the same time, why send these Birds three thousand miles to a very HOT climate and to a Desert, when, probably, there are better alternatives which with some patience, and detective-work, can be found within comfortable driving distance in your own regional Climate?

I will be happy to accept your Birds...and to do my best with them.

And, in the interest OF the Birds, and of you, I am wishing to see other, easier on them and on you, of alternatives to be explored.

Shift your emphasis or attentions to the direction of weighing possible solutions, and their merits, and how to find them, or what it may take TO find them.

If you get on the phone, and start doing some 'detective work', you can likely find someone very suitable who is not so very far from you, where to stay in the same climate would be preferable for these Birds, and you could drive them, a few at a time, and so on, to the new home for that person to care for them a while and release them intelligently to a flock they are familiar with.


Did I not go into some details already about keeping mated pairs "together" when they go to their new home?


Please, slow down your anxiousness or worries, so you may instead, understand what has been said so far...there is nothing ambigous or shifting in my interest or desire to help you and your Birds.

You would not ship them untill the cool of Autumn anyway, you said, so, does it not seem you have some time to explore options and try dialing a phone and being an active part of finding a good possibility in your region?

Calling Vets in ajacent areas or ajacent Counties and asking them for info on rehabbers or hobbiests or Pigeon People they might know, in areas you feel might offer nice surrounds? Calling the Audobon Society even, calling SPCAs, calling Wild LIfe people, calling creatively...be persistant...!

If you find promising leads, go vist these people and see how it feels, see if you and they are comfortable with the plan...

And if that fails, then you know you still have me in ready...!



Love,

Phil
Las Vegas

[Skyeking]

Originally Posted by Dovena

You know, someone in this group advised me to remove the eggs belonging to a brother and sister who had mated, because there was a risk of birth defects or what-have-you, and I did force myself to remove the eggs and replace them with dummy eggs. But the brother and sister are continuing to sit on the eggs, although they seem to realize that the eggs are overdue for hatching, and they appear to be stressed by this. Now I hate myself not only for stealing their eggs -- which, for all we know, just might have hatched into chicks that were perfect -- but also for keeping the siblings captive so that they choose to breed with each other where they probably would not, otherwise.

Whoever advised you to remove the eggs belonging to the brother and sister was absolutely right. It is common knowledge that you do not breed brother to sister, as of genetic problems. I have seen the results personally when I was 10 years old, we got two pigeons that turned out to be brother and sister, but my dad didn't know when he bought them, and they had two babies, both born blind! Only did we find out later they were brother and sister. If you had taken that chance to let them keep their eggs, that would have been a very risky having two birds born blind, or with some other deformity.

Treesa

[Dovena]

The brother and sister are still very attached to each other and are still trying desperately to re-enter the bathroom where the dummy eggs and their nest were, after I closed the door yesterday so that the brother would not keep bullying and fighting with his father who is helping his mate to nurse two newborn chicks. It is very sad to see the brother and sister so agitated, longing for their nest and worried for their unborn young. But Terry said I did the right thing to prevent the results of inbreeding, so I take comfort in that.
Phil, I have been trying to look into the upstate New York area, but a rescuer has just informed me that there are a lot of hawks in upstate New York. How to verify that, I am not sure. It is hard to do the legwork, because I have no phone access at my office. So it is REALLY hard.

[Dovena]

Doris Booth of upstate New York has informed me that she does not release any of her pigeons, because of the hawks up there. She said it doesn't matter the color of the pigeon; no pigeons are released in this raptor-rich environment.

Okay....

[Yo Pauly]

Little late with this message, but if Dovena is still around, maybe it will help.

Central Park used to be a wonderful place to release pigeons because it houses thousands of them and because it has a generous, lunch-hour crowd that feeds the pigeons well. The birds living around the park's lake near 57th street and 5th Avenue certainly have it made.

But, ever since those red-tailed hawks began nesting on the ledges of the high-rise condos across from the park, the one-time, bird haven has become much too dangerous. Just last year, the red-tailed hawks and all those cuckoo birds, who photograph or just watch the hawks feed on the pigeons, made city headlines for days.

Central Park, however, isn't the only park in New York City. There are many other grassy and spacious city parks. Are you aware of the beautiful parks located on Staten Island? One is Clove Lake Park, and the other is Silver Lake Park. I suggest you take a ferry boat ride and check them out. If you like what you see, you can release your flock in either pigeon-friendly park. The birds would be welcomed and safe from predators.

I'm assuming that Your problem has already been solved. However, if you meet up with a similar situation again, you might want to visit a park on Staten Island. (Or, the closer-to-your-apartment Prospect Park in Brooklyn, which is only a subway ride away.)

Twenty-five pigeons in a city apartment; I can't imagine the scene. My two-room apartment used to be overcrowded with the chihuahua, cat, and me.

[TAWhatley]

Originally Posted by Yo Pauly

I'm assuming that Your problem has already been solved. However, if you meet up with a similar situation again, you might want to visit a park on Staten Island. (Or, the closer-to-your-apartment Prospect Park in Brooklyn, which is only a subway ride away.)

I don't think the problem is resolved, so your suggestions are most appreciated. I do hope that Dovena will find a good solution for her birds.

Terry

[Yo Pauly]

Dovena, this idea might work for you. Battery Park, which is at the southern tip of Manhattan, would be a great place to release your pigeons. This park is close to your home, so you could visit your birds whenever you want to. I suggest you get some plastic bands for your birds so you could identify them more easily. Call a few pet shops and ask for the bands. They're not expensive. You might have to search through a Brooklyn or Queens yellow pages for the bands because there aren't many pet shops that sell pigeons in Manhattan.

One thing I forgot to mention: If you do decide to release your pigeons in Battery Park, do it on a weekend (preferably Sunday). New York City park workers usually work from 7:00 am-3:30 pm. Release your flock in the late afternoon to minimize your chances of getting a summons.

[Dovena]

Hello, everyone. This is Dovena and things are the same, only now it appears that two other male youngsters have sexually matured, because they crow and dance and seem to be playing a domination game. Battery Park City is in downtown Manhattan by Wall Street, Ground Zero, etc. The red-tailed hawks live on Fifth Avenue, but the Wall Street area is host to peregrine falcons which also devour pigeons. Every time someone rescues and rehabs a fledgling falcon downtown, there is coverage in the news media. If there are hawks and falcons in Manhattan, is it safe to assume that Staten Island, which is not so far away, does not have these same raptors? There are hawks in Queens. Two rescuers have observed hawks attacking pigeons in Queens. How can we know that the two parks in Staten Island are safe from hawks and other raptors?

Yes, still 25 birds in my one-bedroom. Today they all congregated at the windowsill, looking out, and I was seriously contemplating removing the screens from the windows and letting them out. A pseudo "soft release" where I leave the windows open and they can fly in and out at will. If I do this, it had better be soon, because we are already into August and before you know it, the cold weather will be upon us, and they need time to adjust. But I stare at the birds and most of them are distinct in that they are white or mostly white or unusually tinged with interesting colors. They wouldn't really blend in with the feral pigeons. Well, most of them wouldn't, anyway.

But no, no solution yet. Spent the entire weekend, trying to keep things under control, housekeeping/cleaning-wise, to little avail. The most stressful thing I have ever had to do. Can hardly describe it to you.

[Yo Pauly]

Dovena, take a ride to Clove Lake Park on S.I. The last time I was there I noticed many ducks in the lake, and many sparrows and pigeons everywhere. The authorities wouldn't put ducks in an unsafe lake, would they?

The entire trip from Manhattan shouldn't take much longer than an hour. As soon as you get off the ferry, you will immediately see a bus terminal. Ask someone for the Clove Lake bus. The bus ride from ferry to park is not even 20 minutes. You'll probably like what you see when you get there.

I know you mean well, but you can't keep the birds in an apartment. Preventing them from flying outdoors might be bordering on a mild form of cruelty.