25 Pigeons in one bedroom Apt. in Manhattan

[Dovena]

Each bird that I have rehabbed has been completely checked by an avian vet and has a Certificate of Good Health to show that it is free of any diseases transferable to other birds or to humans. The rest of my birds are these birds' offspring. Only one of my birds has any defect, at all, now, and it is an undetectable defect, at that. They are all beautiful, healthy, and very energetic and robust birds, perfect specimens.

[feralpigeon]

Hi Dovena,

Don't want to be or make suggestions which you find offensive, I do want to make some observations. We all have limits, whether society imposed or self imposed and sometimes they do indeed, overlap. There is no need to list all the varied kinds of limitations that we all experience in life, but we need to be aware of limitations and make adjustments. It's impossible to care for all the sick or injured or vulnerable animals/birds that cross our paths. There are many who do this for a living or are licensed to do so. When we inadequately provide for our pets, we are creating a window of vulnerability that puts them at risk,
not to mention the charges that can be levied against ourselves. It's OK to ask a professional for help, that is, a rehabber or avian vet who will find them a home and spread the joy around, or be experienced in the arena of soft releases. The bottom line here is what is best for the birds and ultimately you.

fp

[phyll]

Dovena,
Thank you for caring about God's creatures.
Please try not to be offended, or insulted, by Lisa's comments. It sounds like she was only trying to help, not hurt, you.
Of course, "opening your windows & letting the pigeons
go," is certainly NOT the answer.
In my "UNprofessional" opinion, your situation is not related to OCD. This disorder is something I am familiar with, as I have lived with it for many years.
My OCD does not manifest as hoarding, but that doesn't matter.
Forget about that now, & work on a solution for you & the birds.

I live on Long Island. If you need transportation for the birds, please e-mail me.

May God bless you.

Phyll

[pdpbison]

Originally Posted by Dovena

Each bird that I have rehabbed has been completely checked by an avian vet and has a Certificate of Good Health to show that it is free of any diseases transferable to other birds or to humans. The rest of my birds are these birds' offspring. Only one of my birds has any defect, at all, now, and it is an undetectable defect, at that. They are all beautiful, healthy, and very energetic and robust birds, perfect specimens.

So...why not release them then?

Why have you not been releasing them all along as they come of age to BE released? if all these Birds are then the 'offspring' of a few non-releaseable pairs? Or are these 'pairs' able to fly and so on too?

You have only "one" Bird with any defect? And the defect is not detectable?

Yet none, some, all of your Birds are non-releaseable?


...or they are releaseable but you fear they will not have the same assurances you give them, if free and feral...?


Or?

Dovena...

Please...

Learn to be a "re-habber' who lets them 'go' once they are well and able?


Love,

Phil
las Vegas

[Skyeking]

Hi Dovena,

I'm glad you took the eggs away from the siblings. That was a good move, you can provide them with dummy eggs, as I do with Skye and Sonic. Sounds like your birds are in excellent health.

Have you had a chance to seperate the hens from the males? I know this is probably a major task, but it will keep the population from increasing further, and also keep the siblings from continuing to mate.

Do you have access to a regular pigeon mix, that has 7 to 10 % protein? That will help slow down egg production. If you are giving them a breeding mix (which is up to 15% protein) that will also keep the sex drive and egg production going. Also you can add barley (not pearl barley, however) to the mix, which is also a natural birth control, which decreases the sex drive, up to 15% of the mix.

You can start by seperating as many of the single birds as possible, any youngster that hasn't matured yet, but is eating on its own. Seperate any hen and male that is not breeding (using the new seed mix). Continue to do this daily, once all babies are grown you can seperate those parents, also.

Do you have any large cages to house the youngsters? They should not be breeding at all, if they are immature, and the seed mix will help with that also. Eventually you can put the males in one room and the hens in another.
You will need only large cages for the youngsters until they are matured and can go in with the males or females.

This is a tremendous task, I know, as I'm going to be seperating mine, if you would like help, let us know. I used to worry about the emotions if I seperated them, but I've noticed they will be better seperated for a time. It will be hard at first, but pigeons adjust. The hens need a vacation from the males, it will give them time to re-group, put them in a vacation mode, & allow them time to eat in peace and quiet. Sometimes the hens seem a little stressed trying to eat at the feeders at breakfast time, when the males are constantly trying to push them out of the way, so they can eat first, or flirting with them and annoying them. Males don't have any manners when it comes to food, they chow down first even leaving their mates to eat last.

I've even seperated some hens temporarily from the males, putting them in a nice enclosed porch, where they get a chance to rest and relax from the group, they get a chance to de-stress from interactions with their mates, and they don't really miss them, just their lives inside the coop, which they can resume with the hens also.

This will also help you prepare the birds, when you find them new homes.

[AZWhitefeather]

Originally Posted by Dovena

Yes, I have received some good advice and I have taken it.

I have removed new eggs that were laid by sibling pairs, because Treesa said that the babies might be born with birth defects. So I have in fact followed the birth control advice.

Speaking of good advice, I have mentioned in several posts that these birds are NOT all releasable.

And, as for AZ Whitefeather, it's nice that you have a handy husband, but not all of us have mates who have mechanical and/or carpentry skills.

Hello Dovena,
First & foremost, you are exactly right in that there were some statements made that shouldn't have been.

With regard to birth control: If babies are still still being, one of two things is happening, either you aren't following the birth control advice offered to you or the form of birth control you are using is not adequate.

With regard to disposition: I realize not all rescued birds can be released. I have 9 to prove that point. However, the ones that can be released, should be, but you have continued to find reason not to release the releasable ones.
We all have concerns of hawks, feral cats, even humans when we release a bird back into the wild.

With regard to my husband: He plays an important role in our birds lives. Yes, I did mention he built an aviary when I was addressing you statement:

"Some of the moderators on this site have quite a few birds themselves, but have the luxury of greater space and time to care for the birds"

I was explaning that I certainly didn't always have the luxury of greater space for my birds, which you seem to think Moderators have. Not sure where you got that notion, but it has taken us 3 years to fulfill our dream of having an aviary for our birds.
The credit would have gone to whoever built the aviary, just happens it was my husband.

Cindy

[Dovena]

Please review "Trees Gray's" releasability criteria. It's not only the injured ones that are not releasable. Why do I have to keep saying that? It appeared that everyone read the criteria and agreed it was excellent. Yet all these posts stating that, as long as they are healthy, out they go.

[Dovena]

Seems to be a lot of misunderstanding here. I never ever implied that moderators on this group have advantages that others of us do not have. Why would I think that? I was merely addressing "Ratified's" opinion that those who have way "too many" birds have a psychological disorder. The point about the moderators is that many of them simply have a lot of birds because they love the birds and realize it would not be a good idea for those birds to be released. The fact that they choose to keep many birds doesn't make them nuts. And you responded by explaining something altogether different, based on your assumption that I thought that the moderators have all sorts of perks. I never thought that. Geez...

[Dovena]

Thank you, Treesa. I didn't separate the males from the females, because I was advised that one must not separate a bird from its mate and I trusted that advice. I do not have an extra room right now, but am working on it.
I really appreciate your releasability criteria. Sure, my birds are healthy, but that doesn't mean I am about to open the windows. You state multiple criteria, not only one -- good health. I wonder how many people who read your post remember what they read. It appears that another read is in order.
I will let you know what happens and thank you for your goodwill, which is much appreciated.

[Pigeonpal2002]

Hi Dovena,

Please understand that everyone here is very concerned, concerned about you and concerned about the pigeons multiplying in your apartment. Everyone has been very kind, compassionate and we're just trying to understand your point of view as well as your long term plans.

I've kept silent in this thread, although I did give my opinion in an earlier thread of yours regarding the ethics of replacing eggs. So, I have been mostly listening and reading and wondering about what's been discussed. I have a few questions for you that perhaps you've already mentioned but I lost track of.

1) how many pigeons in total do you have now?
2) do you plan on letting them continue to breed?...if so, why?
3) are these birds on the tame side or are they more wild/feral acting?
4) do you really believe that letting the birds multiply in your apartment is what's best for the birds?
5) what would you do if something happened to you unexpectedly, do you have a back up person to look after all these birds?
6) what would you do if your building manager found out that you were keeping all these pigeons? Would he throw you and the pigeons out on the street?

Sorry, I had more questions than I thought, might think of more later as well In any case, if you could answer these for me because these are questions that I don't really recall the answers to and I'm just curious about


Thank you very much,

[AZWhitefeather]

Originally Posted by Dovena

Seems to be a lot of misunderstanding here. I never ever implied that moderators on this group have advantages that others of us do not have. Why would I think that? I was merely addressing "Ratified's" opinion that those who have way "too many" birds have a psychological disorder. The point about the moderators is that many of them simply have a lot of birds because they love the birds and realize it would not be a good idea for those birds to be released. The fact that they choose to keep many birds doesn't make them nuts. And you responded by explaining something altogether different, based on your assumption that I thought that the moderators have all sorts of perks. I never thought that. Geez...

Dovena,
I have reviewed my posts & I don't feel there was any assumption made.
I responded to the statement you made, as it was written:

"Some of the moderator on this site have quite a few birds themselves, but have the luxury of greater space and time to care for the birds"

by explaining my personal situation. Period. Nothing more, nothing less.

Cindy

[Dovena]

Your questions are not really questions, Brad. Or they are what are called "loaded questions." They are not objective, but are rather editorial. Why do you suggest that anyone may soon be throwing anyone else out onto the street? Why do you speculate that someone intends to allow birds to multiply like rabbits from here to eternity? Why do you assume that God forbid their caretaker gets hit by a truck, no one else would step in to take over the care of the birds? You appear to have already formed strong impressions, and your questions are more for the sake of confirming your prejudiced view. My current plight has not been presented for entertainment value or for your satisfaction in being morally superior or right. Much of this masked "concern" that is expressed is really nothing more than sitting in judgment, and what gives one the right to judge another? I recognize concern and I can smell "opinionated" from a mile away. Your "concerned" post reeks of "judgmental," not of concern.

[Pigeonpal2002]

Hi Dovena,

I'm truly sorry that you feel that my post and questions weren't sincere. I haven't formed any real opinion yet and my questions weren't meant to confirm or disprove anything that I've been thinking. This was not my intention, I wanted these questions to open up a dialogue so that I could further understand your views pertaining to your current situation.

The reason I asked you about how your building manager would respond to finding out about the pigeons in your apartment is because this is something that anyone should think about and/or be prepared for. We all know that pigeons aren't well liked and management or other tenants in an apartment complex wouldn't approve if they found out. There have been many discussions on this very topic many times before in here.

The reason I asked about whether you had a back up plan if something happened to you (heaven forbid) is because again, this is something that we ALL have to think about as well. I wasn't referring specifically to you dying or anything that drastic but at any time, any one of us could get really sick, injured or be thrust into a situation that totally disrupts our life to the point where we be forced to abandon our animals. If we are single (which I am) this is especially true and I believe you are as well.

You seem to be a very conscientious person and someone who thinks ahead and who wants to ensure the well being of your pigeons and this is just like me too. I think about these things, I have a backup plan for my birds if something was to happen to me. I don't live in an apartment building so I don't have that worry however.

I wish you would understand that I'm genuinely concerned about your pigeons and you. I have nothing to gain here by making a spectacle of your plight but our forum is the only place where we can discuss these issues amoung fellow pigeon lovers without being judged. I'm not a rehabilitator, I'm not an animal rights activist and I don't even live in the USA so I've there is no hidden agenda or plot here.

If you don't want to answer the questions I've asked, that is fine. But please think about them and how they pertain to your own beliefs.

[phyll]

Dovena,
"Not for nuthin'," but as far as I know Brad, he asked those questions because he is truly concerned.
I hope you don't get pissed, but your response was rather unkind.
It seems you are overly sensitive to, or suspicious of, any suggestions given to help you.
Please know that everyone here would very much like to help you solve your problem. Give them a chance, will ya?
Remember, if your pigeons need transportation (now or in the future) please e-mail me. My husband & I would be happy to help out.
Take care.

Phyll

[Skyeking]

Dovena,

Please accept the help that has been offered here. We are legitimate in our sincerety to help you and your pigeons. We have devoted countless hours of time with suggestions, and offers to help find homes, take some of the birds and help with shipping.

We don't gossip, we don't insult, we are here out of our mutual bonds for the love and well being of pigeons everywhere.

I want to personally thank each and everyone of you who have given your time and offers to help Dovena and her pigeons on this thread.