NYC Dept Of Health Violation for "attracting pests" aka pigeons

[bialdor]

Hello - have just recently joined this group, mainly because of the following problem but also for general advice and info. The specific problem is that, with our bird feeders in the back yard (Queens, NYC), apart from the cardinals, goldfinch, blue jays, sparrows etc we have also attracted a number of pigeons. Not a concern for us but it has prompted a neighbor to file a complaint with the NYC Dept of Health that we "are feeding pigeons and creating a massive mess"! Have had two Health inspector visits - the first after the big snow where we were issued a "violation notice" and the second this week where we got a another notice and the advice that a pest control inspector would visit shortly and, if we had not removed most if not all the feeders, as we were causing a "pest" situation, we would be fined up to $1000. We have stopped using feed with red millet and cracked corn but the pigeons seem to still be attracted to nijer and sunflower. The Health inspector also said that the pigeons would ruin the house roof probably prompting further legal problems with the neighbor (shared roof in a duplex). Any advice from anyone experienced with this situation would be greatly appreciated.

We recently rescued a pigeon that was caught up on a discarded kite line that had wound around and cut into where the wing joined the chest. I bathed it and put on some antiseptic cream, placed the bird in a box with some water and food but the bird did not last the night. Not sure if we did the right thing but perhaps something I can pursue later. But any info on the Dept of Health issue above looked forward to.

Thanks for your help.

[Feefo]

Hello and welcome to pigeons.com.

The best group to advise you about the problems that you are experiencing is http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PijnPeople/ because they are based in New York, know the legislastion and have probably experienced the same problems.

If you show that you are taking steps to deter the pigeons they might let you carry on feeding the song birds. Perhaps you could put food for the pigeons elsewhere, anonymously?

This is what the RSPB says:

Preventing access to food is a key to dispersing pigeons.
When feeding smaller birds, cage in all food so that pigeons cannot reach it. Maximum effective mesh size will be 2.5 inches. Pigeon-proof feeders are commercially available.


Cynthia

[Feefo]

I have corrected the link to Pijn People. It should work now.

Cynthia

[Al & Bobby]

Bialdor, thanks for getting in touch. If they fine you, you can fight it. I think you can win. I can recommend a lawyer, but posting here and in the NYC groups may bring out more help.

Meanwhile, changing the kind of food won’t help. The feeders Cynthia’s talking about might be the best hope. Does anyone have a link to a supplier? Catching the seeds that fall in boxes or trays covered by screening would also help, as we spoke of by phone.

Thanks for helping the pigeon caught in string. I’m sorry it died, but at least it had your care til the end. We can recommend rehabbers and vets in case you find another hurt bird.

Feeding pigeons is legal in NYC. But the Health Department ignores that and the police ticket people for things like littering. This even though a judge ruled that it's not littering, because the bird food gets picked up and the feeder knows it. They have people scared into sneaking out before sunrise.

[Al & Bobby]

People feed birds on their property everywhere without these complaints. Sometimes, a nasty neighbor calls in the authorities, as one of yours did and as happened to someone else on our group. The Health Dept. isn't allowed to say who, and it could be anyone.

Remember that the visual mess people complain about is only that. It's not going to hurt the building. That's a pest-controller's rumor. Pigeon poop is not dangerous, as they want everyone to believe, unless it's allowed to accumulate for months. Isn't it the neighbors' responsibility to keep pigeons off their side or their house? Aren't there pigeons that don't come for your small amount of seeds?

Pigeon deterrents that work are cheap and not lethal. These are facts you can use if you have to fight.

[bialdor]

Cynthia and Al (and Holly),

Many thanks for responding - the moral support is greatly appreciated. Al, we have been in touch separately by email but thought I would add more details here.

We started by feeding songbirds and are not directly feeding the pigeons but when they showed up it did not bother us. The complaint says we are feeding pigeons. The house is an attached dwelling (another family lives next door in a directly attached house). They have now told us that they are the ones who put in the complaint. We talked to them but got a basic response that, if we continue feeding, they will continue putting in complaints. They mentioned the roof replacement aspect because of the pigeon droppings and that they would sue if they had to replace the roof. They have a terrace in the back with a barbecue and tables and complain that they cannot use it because of the droppings. I have checked over the last two weeks during which it has not been cleaned and counted three or four on the barbecue cover, two on the table and about 20 on the terrace floor. Am thinking to videotape the terrace. The number of pigeons at the moment is from 10 to 15. During last summer though, we did have up to 80. They sit on the combined roof and next door's roof (though he does not seem to be concerned). Of interest is that, last year, the complaining neigbor had given us two tube feeders and two decorative bird houses - this after they had vebally complained to us about two years ago about the pigeons! Nothing on the complaint side from then till this recent activity.

The Dept of Health Inspection stated "Re: Feeding pigeons complaint. 8 bird feeders in backyard and two bird feeders in front yard {... his count includes three suet feeders as bird feeders...}. Excessive bird seeds on ground {... mainly sunflower and safflower shells - not sure how "excessive" was assessed as I had raked last weekend ...} of front and back yards attracting vermin {... not sure on what basis he deduced this as there were no pigeons, rats or mice visible anywhere ...}. No bird droppings nuisance on property and the area. This case will be referred to pest control for vermin inspection". When asked where were the vermin? he said 'well, there is going to be'. He said we have too many feeders and that one in the front and one in the back is enough! When asked what laws we were breaking and what law restricted the number of feeders, he did not answer (or, the stronger impression was he could not answer).

Raises all sorts of questions. If we buy expensive pigeon proofed feeders, are we still restricted to one. And is it against the law for pigeons to feed in your own backyard! And on what basis is "excessive or too many" judged.

We have a flyer on pigeon feeding from Wild Birds Unlimited which, besides recommending caged feeders and specific seed (i.e. no cracked corn or red millet) also suggested placing large empty flower pots under the feeders to collect the spilled seed indicating that the pigeons would not go into the pots - has anyone tried that - am wondering how effective that might be?

As said, am very grateful for the help so far and will greatly appreciate any further comments.

Thanks again,

p.s. When we tried to help the injured pigeon, we had placed a small bowl of water (and seed) in the box with it. The bird sat in the water seemingly resting the injured area in the water! Intrigued us as to why it would do this. Is helping an injured pigeon against the law?

Will also post this on pijnpeople.

Russ and Val

[Alexx]

people are amazing
they won't call the authorities if a child is being abused or left alone
they'll let a woman get beat to death by her husband
but they call the police if someone feeds pigeons

[BrianNAmy]

You could also try the Urban Wildlife Society at http://www.urbanwildlifesociety.org/UWS/ Or contact their president - Dave Roth - who has dealt with issues like these in Arizona at (602) 265-4320. Their site hasn't been updated since last year so I'm not sure how correct their contact info is.

If they go as far as trying to kill the birds, you can use this as ammo:

Article 11 of the new york Environmental Conservation Law

2. Notwithstanding any other law to the contrary, the local legislative body of any city, town or village, or in the city of New York the Department of Health may take or issue a permit to any person to take pigeons at any time and in any humane manner in such municipality, whenever such body or administration finds that pigeons within such municipality are or may become a menace to public health or a public nuisance; provided, however, that no pigeon may be taken in a manner which will endanger other animal life, persons or property.

I know of no substance that will kill only pigeons and not every other type of bird. Even non-toxic, oil based methods are lethal to any bird that touches them. Look into what measures they threaten to take and then challenge them as they must also injure the other wildlife in the area if they use chemicals, poisons, traps, etc.

You can also use this:

New York Cruelty to Animals Law
N.Y. AGRIC. & MKTS LAW §§ 350 et seq. -- last amended 1985

Definition of Animal - Every living creature except a human being.

A person commits cruelty if the person:
Overdrives, overloads, deprives of necessary sustenance, food, or drink, abandons, carries in a cruel manner, poisons, tortures, cruelly beats or unjustifiably injures, maims, mutilates or kills any animal. With no justifiable purpose, intentionally kills or intentionally causes serious physical injury to a companion animal.

Cruelty to animals.
Misdemeanor.
Fine up to $1000.
Imprisonment up to 1 year.

This law does also includes pigeons as there was an article about a string of Pigeon related creulties commited in the Bronx that the authorities were investigating.

[dragonfrog]

Hi, We are experiencing the same problem here in Pawtucket Rhode Island. I feed the songbirds every year and there are always some pigeons that show up. My neighbor uually does not start asking me to stop feeding the birds until April but this year he has forced me to stop while the weather is still so cold and the birds really need the food. He is a car fanatic and washes his cars every day even in the winter. This year he asked us to stop and we explained that we did not set out to feed pigeons they simply show up and we further explained that the birds depend on our feeders and it is cruel and irresponsible to stop now but we would not feed next winter. He is claiming that his tenants 13 year old had a seizure and the pigeon poop may be to blame and that his grandson is experiencing neurological problems cause unknown. He is ready to sue us for creating a public nuisance and health hazard. We have been forced to remove all our feeders, seed blocks and suet as we cannot afford to lose everything if he sues for medical bill reimbursement as he threatens to do. He has also gotten his tenants in an uproar over the pigeons. He has been taking pictures and filming pigeons in my yard and my sister filling the feeders.I am so glad to get this off my chest! I feel terrible about removing the feeders but feel there is no other option. Do you know if pigeons can indeed cause serious illness in humans? Mary

Originally Posted by bialdor

Cynthia and Al (and Holly),

Many thanks for responding - the moral support is greatly appreciated. Al, we have been in touch separately by email but thought I would add more details here.

We started by feeding songbirds and are not directly feeding the pigeons but when they showed up it did not bother us. The complaint says we are feeding pigeons. The house is an attached dwelling (another family lives next door in a directly attached house). They have now told us that they are the ones who put in the complaint. We talked to them but got a basic response that, if we continue feeding, they will continue putting in complaints. They mentioned the roof replacement aspect because of the pigeon droppings and that they would sue if they had to replace the roof. They have a terrace in the back with a barbecue and tables and complain that they cannot use it because of the droppings. I have checked over the last two weeks during which it has not been cleaned and counted three or four on the barbecue cover, two on the table and about 20 on the terrace floor. Am thinking to videotape the terrace. The number of pigeons at the moment is from 10 to 15. During last summer though, we did have up to 80. They sit on the combined roof and next door's roof (though he does not seem to be concerned). Of interest is that, last year, the complaining neigbor had given us two tube feeders and two decorative bird houses - this after they had vebally complained to us about two years ago about the pigeons! Nothing on the complaint side from then till this recent activity.

The Dept of Health Inspection stated "Re: Feeding pigeons complaint. 8 bird feeders in backyard and two bird feeders in front yard {... his count includes three suet feeders as bird feeders...}. Excessive bird seeds on ground {... mainly sunflower and safflower shells - not sure how "excessive" was assessed as I had raked last weekend ...} of front and back yards attracting vermin {... not sure on what basis he deduced this as there were no pigeons, rats or mice visible anywhere ...}. No bird droppings nuisance on property and the area. This case will be referred to pest control for vermin inspection". When asked where were the vermin? he said 'well, there is going to be'. He said we have too many feeders and that one in the front and one in the back is enough! When asked what laws we were breaking and what law restricted the number of feeders, he did not answer (or, the stronger impression was he could not answer).

Raises all sorts of questions. If we buy expensive pigeon proofed feeders, are we still restricted to one. And is it against the law for pigeons to feed in your own backyard! And on what basis is "excessive or too many" judged.

We have a flyer on pigeon feeding from Wild Birds Unlimited which, besides recommending caged feeders and specific seed (i.e. no cracked corn or red millet) also suggested placing large empty flower pots under the feeders to collect the spilled seed indicating that the pigeons would not go into the pots - has anyone tried that - am wondering how effective that might be?

As said, am very grateful for the help so far and will greatly appreciate any further comments.

Thanks again,

p.s. When we tried to help the injured pigeon, we had placed a small bowl of water (and seed) in the box with it. The bird sat in the water seemingly resting the injured area in the water! Intrigued us as to why it would do this. Is helping an injured pigeon against the law?

Will also post this on pijnpeople.

Russ and Val

[BrianNAmy]

Contact the Center for Disease Control. No, seriously. Or if you like, you can read their web site - http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dbmd/disea...lasmosis_g.htm They have never reported a pigeon transmitting a disease to a person.

Histoplasmosis is the fungus that causes the disease common from pigeon droppings. For that matter, it's common in EVERY bird dropping. You can also show him that 80% of the country's population has tested positive for the disease and that it's treatable. In other words, it's the same as a Common Cold.

If I were you I would seriously contact the CDC in person and ask for information directly from them. If he's forcing you to stop feeding the birds in the dead of winter, you can also use the cruelty to animals laws I mentioned above "deprives of necessary sustenance, food, or drink" and quote him that part, providing Rhode Island's laws are similar to NY.

[AZWhitefeather]

It's truly a shame Mary, that you, your sister & the pigeons are faced with such torment.

You stated:
"He is claiming that his tenants 13 year old had a seizure and the pigeon poop may be to blame and that his grandson is experiencing neurological problems cause unknown. He is ready to sue us for creating a public nuisance and health hazard. We have been forced to remove all our feeders, seed blocks and suet as we cannot afford to lose everything if he sues for medical bill reimbursement as he threatens to do. He has also gotten his tenants in an uproar over the pigeons. He has been taking pictures and filming pigeons in my yard and my sister filling the feeders"

Thankfully, thus far, I've not been faced with such 'closed minded' people regarding our pigeons.
First & foremost, I'm not advising anyone on what they should or shouldn't do. I would however, like to share what I would do in a situation as this:

First, I would 'diplomatically' request that the person making the allegations, provide me with 'factual' evidence (e.g., medical & lab reports, etc.), that the pigeons actually caused the health issues regarding the 13 year old tenant & the grandson.

Secondly, I would sit down, research & print all the information I could find in defense of the pigeons. There are several sites in which you can obtain this information.

Having your 'ducks in a row', so to speak, is definitely an advantage when disputing an issue.

Good luck & please do keep us posted.

Cindy

[dragonfrog]

Thank you AmyNBrian for the info regarding Histoplasmosis. I have been reading up on it and feel relieved that it is a rare occurence.
Thanks, Cindy, I have been getting as much information as I can and will continue to collect more. I have been advised that I would still need a lawyer. I just don't think I can afford it financially and emotionally. I will however keep any info I get. I have heard from another neighbor that our Pigeon Hating neighbor is now setting his sights on some people ane street over as he has seen bird feeders in their yard. I will share any information I get with anyone that he intends to go after. He is also seeking money to repair his roof! His tenant informed me that pigeons weigh about 2 pounds each and can cause a roof to sag under their collective weight! It just gets crazier! Thanks Gain, Mary

[Rockie]

Originally Posted by dragonfrog

He is also seeking money to repair his roof! His tenant informed me that pigeons weigh about 2 pounds each and can cause a roof to sag under their collective weight! It just gets crazier!

Wow! A 2 lb pigeon...sounds like they belong in the guiness book of world records! I don't know about the fancier type of pigeons ( I am mainly ferals and loft escapees) but I don't think there is such a thing as a 2 lb pigeon.

I want to wish you, your family & the pij's you were feeding all the best. I feel terrible for you all and have been under watch by my neighbors at home and work as well. It's an awful feeling when you are always looking over your shoulder when you're trying to care for wildlife.

I hope someone somewhere puts your awful neighbor in his place soon!...It would be a shame for him to get away with all this nonsense! Good luck.

[dragonfrog]

Thanks for kind words Leslie. I feel better being able to talk about this where people understand. He really is not a nice person. Every year he complains to me about the bird droppings on his cars and every year I try to explain that the cars can be washed but that the natural habitats of the many displaced animals are gone forever due to over development. He usually backs down but not this year. He has been visiting other neighbors and getting them upset about the pigeons. I am really outnumbered and cannot afford to move. I remember when many people in Pawtucket kept pigeons. As a child I resued many injured pigeons by returning them to pigeon keeper on the next street. How did a bird held in such high esteem come to these dire straits today? Mary

[TAWhatley]

Originally Posted by Rockie

Wow! A 2 lb pigeon...sounds like they belong in the guiness book of world records! I don't know about the fancier type of pigeons ( I am mainly ferals and loft escapees) but I don't think there is such a thing as a 2 lb pigeon.

Actually, there are pigeons that large .. Giant Runts for one breed .. it's highly unlikely, however, that this particular roof is being collapsed by Giant Runts. They are a very domesticated breed, too big to be strong flyers, and all in all, the person claiming these are 2 pound pigeons is full of poop .. pigeon or otherwise.

The "average" feral pigeon probably weighs between 400-500 grams .. about a pound or less at the most.

Terry