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1st Landing Lof 1st Landing Lof is offline
Posted 29th June 2008, 08:19 AM
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Virginia Beach, VA
Posts: 76

Black Sions


Does anyone know where I can get a pair of Black Sions? Youngbirds, squeekers or breeders will do.

Thanks
Bill


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SmithFamilyLoft SmithFamilyLoft is offline
Posted 29th June 2008, 09:16 AM
Join Date: Nov 2004
Country: United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1st Landing Lof View Post
Does anyone know where I can get a pair of Black Sions? Youngbirds, squeekers or breeders will do.

Thanks
Bill
What exactly are " Black Sions" ?

I knew of the great Paul Sion strain, but he was dead decades before the 1960's...my dates might be a bit off, but the last Sion pigeon died in the 1950's or earlier. And to the best of my knowlege, Paul Sion never owned any black pigeons. The best one could hope for, is what may be left after numerous generations, through numerous fanciers hand's, which are now called something for commercial purposes.
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windyflat windyflat is offline
Posted 29th June 2008, 12:32 PM
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Upstate NY
Posts: 318
I have some dark velvet long end stuff you could have if you lived close to NY. I filled my loft with them when i first started but i've gone almost exclusively to a performance based middle distance bird. I keep the long end birds as widow hens and feeders mainly. Nice to look at but slower than death on race day.
They make nice pets.
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re lee re lee is offline
Posted 29th June 2008, 12:56 PM
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: enid okla
Posts: 4,096
You will find people that say they have sions to this day. Wher really they do not. NOW sion based birds yes perhaps. As Warren said Paul Sion has been gone many years And Sions from other key sources those people have gone also. But even people still say they have wegge also Who has been gone for the longest time. You will find someone who will sale you some black birds called sions. Just remember they really are not but a base line strain anymore. And That is as best. Will not be that many more years AND janssens will be base lined also.
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1st Landing Lof 1st Landing Lof is offline
Posted 29th June 2008, 01:20 PM
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Virginia Beach, VA
Posts: 76
Thats true, but you could say that about a lot of strains like Wegge, Hofkens ect. There not many if any strains pure today. And where do you suppose they got their birds when they created all of these strains?
The fact is that most pedigrees that come with birds are not very accurate if you want to split hairs. Would it make you feel better if I asked where to buy Black homers?
If there any Black homing pigeons out there that claim to be "Black Sions" I would like to know so I could make whom ever a offer for them. And if you have a pedigree that says they are from the Sion strain, all the better. Please email me at wmacdonald1@cox.net.
Thanks
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Lovebirds Lovebirds is offline
Posted 29th June 2008, 02:36 PM
Join Date: Sep 2002
Country: United States
Location: Virginia
Age: 54
Posts: 15,546
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1st Landing Lof View Post
Would it make you feel better if I asked where to buy Black homers? If there any Black homing pigeons out there that claim to be "Black Sions" I would like to know so I could make whom ever a offer for them. And if you have a pedigree that says they are from the Sion strain, all the better. Please email me at wmacdonald1@cox.net.
Thanks

LOL........sorry. but that's funny. Folks like to make a big deal about a bird being or NOT being this or that..........most of us know that's true...there's no pure strains of anything out there. I personally have never seen, or recall seeing, black Sions. There's lots of Dark Checks.......I've checked out the Sions lots of times but have never spent the money to buy any. Good luck finding some.
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hillfamilyloft hillfamilyloft is offline
Posted 29th June 2008, 02:45 PM
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Farmingon New Mexico
Age: 49
Posts: 3,590
I would agree, but also bear in mind that people that say they have Janssens are about as accurate. I have one Janssen bird in my loft and than many more that have Janssen lineage. I have a few more that I can say that are half, because they are bred to my Janssen bird. I know what Warren is thinking, if those birds passed through someone else they are not Janssens. I am saying she is a Janssen, because her four grandparents were out of the Janssen loft with Janssen lineage five generations deep. Ok go ahead and argue the point.

Ok back to Sions. I raced birds with Sion lineage back when I was a kid. Great longer distance birds. Slow but reliable. The last run-in with as close to a Sion as I could get was a gentleman in Grand Junction Colorado. He had an 18 year old cock that filled an egg or two from time to time, that he claimed was a Sion. He had a family of these birds that were his long distance birds. He was getting about $500 a pop for youngsters. He was sending them back east to fly in 400 mile yb and then 500-600 mile old bird races. I can remember as a kid looking at my two pedigrees and seeing imported birds with Sion written below the band number. This was mid 1970s so my thoughts are those birds had some Sion in them. Like my birds have Janssen in them.

Randy
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hillfamilyloft hillfamilyloft is offline
Posted 29th June 2008, 02:57 PM
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Farmingon New Mexico
Age: 49
Posts: 3,590
Your best bet is if you are looking for black pigeon would be to look for a fancier that has black pigeons and not worry about the lineage. In my opinion, when colors besides, BB and BC, become your selection criteria than lineage or race record are not going to matter. If you are looking for birds to fly 500 miles, a bird with say Gordon, or Sion in its lineage might be a start. A better start would be to find a pair of Blacks that breed winners and get a few young off of them. Why do I say BB or BC, because that is all I have in my loft. Ha Ha. Warren might throw in a Red or two in his criteria. In other words color hear is only related to the fact that that is what color my birds are.

My mentor has Black birds. I think his are off of some of Ganus birds. CBS has black birds. The are nice looking birds. Most likely more in the middle distance category. Here again, correct me if I am wrong, I do not see these birds on the top of the race sheet. I do think there is a family of HVR birds in Utah that are dark dark check almost black. Now these birds have good racing records. I would look up the Jones Boys in Utah.

Randy
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hillfamilyloft hillfamilyloft is offline
Posted 29th June 2008, 03:00 PM
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Farmingon New Mexico
Age: 49
Posts: 3,590
http://www.skylakesions.com/

Try this guy out. I think his birds do ok in races. There are also some dark birds in his loft. These birds may also get you close to Sion bloodline also.

Randy
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hillfamilyloft hillfamilyloft is offline
Posted 29th June 2008, 03:08 PM
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Farmingon New Mexico
Age: 49
Posts: 3,590
Looks like these are 300 to 600 mile birds. Might be a nice long distance family. Sionish birds are also know to be good show pigeons. In some of the clubs and combines back east having sprinters, middle, and long distance pigeons is a must. Most have at least two different birds if they compete in all the races. Say Janssen based and Gordon Based birds. Sions might work here for the longer birds. Bob Kinney was one of the few that crossed Janssens with Gordons to found his family. He put speed into distance and distance into speed. He originally had Stassart based birds, but kept getting beat by the Gordons. He acquired Janssen birds that beat his Stassarts at short distances, and the Gordons beat both at long distances. So he got rid of the Stassart birds and crossed the other two and won everything.

Good Luck
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windyflat windyflat is offline
Posted 29th June 2008, 03:31 PM
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Upstate NY
Posts: 318
Jimmy Gettings Reunion racing loft would be a good bet for black pigeons
http://www.reunionracinglofts.us/
I have a few of his birds (not blacks) and i'm very impressed with them.

Last edited by windyflat; 29th June 2008 at 03:34 PM.
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LokotaLoft
Posted 29th June 2008, 03:34 PM
Posts: n/a
heres some black diamonds you might like to take a look at their peds look pretty impressive but you know what they say about peds
http://www.chriscosloft.com/cgi-bin/...tem=1214947584
http://www.chriscosloft.com/cgi-bin/...tem=1214948055

at least they are homers and they are black ...hehe
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1st Landing Lof 1st Landing Lof is offline
Posted 29th June 2008, 04:08 PM
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Virginia Beach, VA
Posts: 76
Thanks guys, I am really looking for a few Black birds. Diamonds or Africians. Its just that I have 2 pairs of "Sions" (thats what the peds say) and they are beautiful birds. Their babies are beautiful also. I will race them, but winning is secondary to me. I just like and enjoy the birds. I set out from the beginning set on certain birds. Now I have everything that I wanted except for a Black pair. So over the next several months I will find the pair thay suites me. Thanks for the info.
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hillfamilyloft hillfamilyloft is offline
Posted 29th June 2008, 04:28 PM
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Farmingon New Mexico
Age: 49
Posts: 3,590
Let us know how those Sions do in the longer races?

Randy
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SmithFamilyLoft SmithFamilyLoft is offline
Posted 30th June 2008, 03:49 PM
Join Date: Nov 2004
Country: United States
Posts: 5,367
Quote:
Originally Posted by hillfamilyloft View Post
I would agree, but also bear in mind that people that say they have Janssens are about as accurate. I have one Janssen bird in my loft and than many more that have Janssen lineage. I have a few more that I can say that are half, because they are bred to my Janssen bird. I know what Warren is thinking, if those birds passed through someone else they are not Janssens. I am saying she is a Janssen, because her four grandparents were out of the Janssen loft with Janssen lineage five generations deep. Ok go ahead and argue the point.

Ok back to Sions. I raced birds with Sion lineage back when I was a kid. Great longer distance birds. Slow but reliable. The last run-in with as close to a Sion as I could get was a gentleman in Grand Junction Colorado. He had an 18 year old cock that filled an egg or two from time to time, that he claimed was a Sion. He had a family of these birds that were his long distance birds. He was getting about $500 a pop for youngsters. He was sending them back east to fly in 400 mile yb and then 500-600 mile old bird races. I can remember as a kid looking at my two pedigrees and seeing imported birds with Sion written below the band number. This was mid 1970s so my thoughts are those birds had some Sion in them. Like my birds have Janssen in them.

Randy

Hello Randy,

Yea, I know we have discussed this aspect of "Names" of pigeons which report to ID their background.

I came across this article some time ago: http://www.pipa.be/artikelsnew/gallez/bricoux.htm

Which pertains to the late Dr. Arthur Bricoux, and what fanciers thought of him in his day. Paul Sion has his picture in the article, as the two exchanged birds from time to time.

What I find revealing, is when a decade or so later in 1952, his son Arthur Jr. conducted a complete sell out of all remaining birds. It was apparent, at least in this article, that the birds had changed once they had passed into the hands of another fancier, even when Dr. Bricoux's own son. The birds were not as "classy".

Now if the fanciers back then noticed a difference, when all the prime stock was kept "In the Family". One has to wonder, what the difference would have been, many more years and decades later, when a fancier did not have the benefit of all the original foundation stock ?

What I have noticed, is when a pigeon goes from stronger hands to weaker hands, the birds carry the name of the last pair of strong hands they were in. So if you buy a pair of birds from say a John Smith....that has never done much in terms of racing, he most likely will say, "These are from the best of Mike Ganus"...when you go to buy birds from Mike Ganus...he will say "These are the best of Ludo Claessen"....if you go to buy from Ludo Claessen, all the birds are somehow "Ludos" even if a cross, or even if Ludo collected it from a barn....

If the birds pass through some good hands, but not great hands, then maybe the names get these hyphens in them...like that's a "Heitzman-Sion" or "Dr. Phil -Janssen", or "Holy Cow - Janssen "....so if you purchase birds, that have never passed through any really strong hands, since the last one died in say 1942...well then your birds will carry the name of the guy from 1942. If a great bird passes into strong hands, then that bird becomes a part of that fanciers family, and the previous breeders are often lost to history.

If you think about it, even if the stories are true, that some old man somewhere, for sixty years line bred a single family from a few birds. You would have birds that have never been crossed in sixty some years of breeding, and would represent racers of sixty years ago, not today's modern racing machine ! It would almost be like showing up at the race track with a model T, and trying to compete. Can't even win with the bloodlines which were hot 25 years ago...old technology.

I owned birds from what my orginal mentor called, "Imported French Stuff" which were Paul Sion base....and I liked them. But, they were already outdated by the late 1960's.

Anyway, that's my theory, and I'm sticking with it.

Last edited by SmithFamilyLoft; 30th June 2008 at 05:56 PM. Reason: spelling
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