Hillfamilyloft's Test Birds!

[SmithFamilyLoft]

Originally Posted by ace in the hole

.......There is one more thing that Randy will get from this that you can't get from a one loft race. I will be keeping and breeding only the best to the best.... Ace

Randy & Ace,

Breeding your best to your best, is something that most fanciers would agree with, and if a poll were taken, I would bet that a very large majority of fanciers would claim that is what they do. The reality is though, that the majority of fanciers, even after practicing this craft for fifty years, are for the most part, still producing fairly typical pigeons.

So, I guess my point is, breeding best to best, is what everyone claims to be doing right now. This concept of best to best, sounds easy and simple, and appears to be a good basic principal. The real question may be, how does one really know what his best pigeons are ? And if the fancier by some chance get's it right, what are the odds that a pair of pigeons of any quality, will produce young better then themselves ? And then how does one account for the fact, that your star racers do not always become your star producers ?

My experience has been that as a general rule, pigeons will breed down, not up. And as an example, how many Super Star World Class Racers, which have been put out to stud at super high prices, have produced any young which exceeded the Super Star in racing performance ? There are fanciers in the USA with million dollar inventories of Super World Class Racers at stud, and then enter many dozens of One Loft events, often with several teams, and at the end of the season, only a small percentage really produced the goods. Those are the ones the big fancy glossy ads will of course talk about.

Every year, these fanciers then search the world, with six figure bank rolls trying to find additional Super Stars to add to their collections, but at the end of the day, they still produce a heck of a lot of just plain, everyday, typical pigeons. You know all this of course, just wanted to expand on the challenges of breeding better pigeons.

Sometimes, your best race performing hen and your best race performing cock, are not a match made in heaven. They may both have some of the same faults which you do not wish to have amplified...and sometimes your best breeding cock, and your best breeding hen, do not produce well together.

And then, to top it all off, there is that nagging reality, that if by some chance a really once in a lifetime kind of Super bird, happens to come into our possession, how many fanciers really know what to do with such a bird ? There have been ample examples through out my lifetime, of that happening to a fancier and the fancier goes straight to the top of the race sheets, but then after the bird dies, or is sold, or otherwise no longer available, that fancier sinks back to average again, not knowing how or why he ended up on top in the first place, and clueless as to how to stay there.

Like I said, everyone knows all this to be true, but the challenging part, is being able to produce those very few World Class pigeons, which can and will move your colony forward. And I trust that the two of you have a good working relationship, and will work well together. The real test for the other ten fanciers, is if by chance one of those Hill Family Loft birds turns out to be one of those really World Class, Mike Ganus type of birds where fanciers line up to pay $8,500 for a YB off of it, if that new owner in this "test" will be as generous to Randy, as he was to them.

I throw this out there, not to pretend that I have the answers, but to help readers realise how daunting of a task, that we as fanciers face. And everyone out there, who is attemting to breed better birds, are all attempting to do the same thing. And the vast majority of us, because of the laws of mathmatics, will still be pretty much average.

[hillfamilyloft]

Good thought on the "if they had a champion, would they remember you". I am sure some would not and the "who are you again, type attitude might come forth. I guess I am a "the cup half full" kind of guy. There is taking and dishonesty everywhere. My thought is that their are about the % of dishonesty in the world as their are prize birds. I hear the 5 out of 100 good birds all the time. I think one big test for my birds this year will be that 5% test. The criteria that they are tested against is not the same for every bird, but I think they will still be tested all the same. I was crunching numbers and came up with 72 Hill Family birds out for testing this year. I am hoping that more than four of these birds are what I would think as "good". What is a good bird is relevant to who you ask. I classify a good bird as a race winner maybe a diploma bird in a larger race. We will see. I think a good breeding system could get a guy more in the one in ten or two and ten. We will see.

Randy

[ace in the hole]

Warren,

I know what you are saying. Most people don't know what they have and if they do they don't know what to do with it. Most people will breed this bird or what is produced by this "click" pair back into their flock trying to improve the performance of the team.

Here is a tip for all of you "MOST PEOPLE". By breeding this bird or birds back into your flock, It is like adding a pail of water to your pond. It didn't bring the level up much did it?

The key here is to isolate these genes from the comon flock and focus on it as a new family of birds. The way you proceed from here will determine the out come of your time and efforts.

Ace

[hillfamilyloft]

I agree. I would use the analogy that if you brought say a Kobi Bryant into say a flock of Danny Divitos (sp) you an not likely to get an NBA guard. On the other hand if you bred the Lakers to a WMBA team you might likely get a physical specimen that could play ball.

I was fortunate enough to get my original 12 that could breed ball players. The key to my program is now to find members of that second and third generation that can "play ball". This is where many go wrong. Not to say I will not. This is the hard part. Buying great birds is the easy part, assuming that you have the money or the relationships to acquire such birds. Many fliers have great pedigrees, but they lack in those second and third generation birds. 9 out of my first 12 have raised me winners. Keep in mind that this was a fanciers second, third and fourth generation.

Testing my birds is the only way, I will find these second and third generation breeders. I now feel comfortable with about 10 pairs of breeders. That is my original 9 birds and 11 more out of my colony in four years. Many fanciers fall short, but have deep pockets and just go buy more birds, to try to get that first generation fix.

You study the best fanciers in any country and you find a breeding colony many generations deep. Young birds, just as good as the breeders. Examples would be Ludo, Sangers, Thone, Verkerk, Vic Miller, Bob Kinney, etc. Their birds are deep in lineage and produce better than average.

Randy

[hillfamilyloft]

Well I had a good post that went away. Well the gist of it was carrying over from the Black Sion post. I thought it relevant to tell a little bit about the birds that I have and what each of my families represents. The premise is that a fancier might need more than one type of bird. One for sprint races and one for long races. Maybe even a middle distance bird. This will cover the 100 to 400 mile range in young birds and the 100 - 500 mile range in old.

I fly with futurity type races and with clubs. These races range from 100 to 400 miles. I am developing two types of families to cover this spread. Ace has both of these families represented in the testing. My families would be classified as Sprint to Middle and Middle. In the Netherlands they have sprint, middle, long one day, and two day races. They develop birds for all four types of races.

Randy

[hillfamilyloft]

I am doing this in pieces so if I loose anything. Keep in mind that I started with 12 birds. Every one has Vic Miller blood of some sort. Some 100% others only 25%.

Family one Middle distance. I like Warren am looking for the best middle distance futurity bird. I started with two hens for this family that are 50% Bob Kinney - 25% Piet Valk Janssen - 25% Vic Miller. A good middle distance cross. They are off the "08" Bob Kinney blood that breeds great futurity birds. Grand daughters of the Miller Cock -20th Snow Bird 320mi. I crossed these birds with a 100% Engels bird and a Delbar/Janssen bird. Crossed these in and so on. Have had winners Average Speed, 250mi to 340mi.

Sprint middle. Started with two 100% Vic Miller Birds. Great Middle distance family. Crossed with 100% Janssen bird and a Grandson of Ikon/Magic Star. These birds tend to be faster than family one but not a reliable in the tough races. Have had winners from 100 to 250.

Sprint- Van Reet x Vic Miller. High points bird 3rd 125mi and 175mi.

The first and second families are represented in Ace's Loft.

Randy

[hillfamilyloft]

All can win at futurity distance, but have their strengths. My first family will do best in tough headwind races. Family two could easily win a blow home 300 mile race. They are strong around 200 - 250. Out of the 16 birds that I bred and sent to ace, all family one birds were bred for the Action race 320 miles, two birds crossed family 1 x family 2 and two out of family two were auction birds. The other birds were club banded.

In the "hot dog" club that Ace flies in they have races from 100 to 350 ybs and 100 - 400 as old birds. Thus needing two types of birds, sprinters and middle distance type birds. I used my Bob Kinney birds as the base for my middle distance birds. They are Janssen x Gordon. He won everything with these birds. Sprinters x long distance birds. My thoughts are this would be a good foundation for a tough middle distance family. For a 320 mile race this was our choice. I have won 300 miles, 2 at 250 miles and an average speed 100mi to 340mi futurity with these birds. They get stronger with distance.

Randy

[hillfamilyloft]

The series that Ace is flying in is going to be a Race inside a Race inside a Race as far as my test birds are concerned. They are being tested as Sprinters and Middle distance birds. They are being tested for a spot to found the loft of Ace. Like a mini-futurity against 70 young birds, one against 70 for a spot in the loft. They are also racing against the club and combine. If they do not compete here than they will all be out. Ace has acquired some great birds to test out. It will be fun when races come.

Randy

[ace in the hole]

Yes Randy, that will be a fun time.

NOW, you have called my club the Frankeferter Club and the Hot Dod Club!*@#!* It is the Frankenmuth Racing Pigeon Club!!!!! Get It Right!!

Now that we have gotten that strait. (HA HA) The task at hand is to get them trained out and ready for the races. The weather has been bad the last two days so the birds have only been loft flown. If the weather is right tomorrow they will go back to the three mile release point. Three days ago they were released at three miles in three groups. The first and third group, released 1/2 hour apart, arrived within a minute of each other. The second group I would say was hit by a hawk or falcon. One of them was home before the other two groups arrived and most of group #2 came in 1,2,5,6,6 over the next hour. Three of them never returned.

I have also discovered a few unruly children on the team. These two birds will go out of the loft with the rest of the team to fly but instead break from the flock and land on seperate barns and wait for the team to land and trap. After that they will fly back trap and feed.

One of these birds is from Randy's Woody & Katlin and the other a combine auction bird from Larry Davis, an Old Bird Top flier in my club. This bird has brothers and sisters that are first place winners and money winners as well as three Uncles that are AU ACE pigeons. Seeing how I can not remove these two from the team they will now earn their spots on the team. Starting tomorrow they will no longer loft fly or train with the rest of the team. I don't want them teaching the others to drop down to rest when ever they want. These two birds will be released one at a time away from the loft only. They will not train with the others untill they are all out 45 miles. At this time I will start training with two or three others from the club and these two will join them to learn to break.

I will keep you all informed as these birds move out and I get the clock on them. The clock will tell me what they are doing!

Ace

[hillfamilyloft]

For those interested, the two clubs I will be flying with are the Frankenstien club with Ace and the Los Lobos Racing Pigeon club in Albuquerque. I will also most likely have birds in the ABQ club that also post results on Los Lobos page.
http://loslobosrpc.com
Both can be found on the AU webpage, under the national Data Base. Great place to find and post your race results.

Randy

[mr squeaks]

I don't know, Ace...do you think Randy might have a "learning" disability??? ROFL



GOOD LUCK TO ALL

Shi

[hillfamilyloft]

Hey Mr. Squeaks

Do you know Scott McCallister? He is moving his opperation down that way. He has a great group of birds. I have a few off his Snow Bird line. He has been very successful with the Vic Miller birds crossed into his old line of Vandeveldes. He flies futurities and has joined with a club down that way.

Oh by they way we are all mentally challenged in some way.

Randy

[ace in the hole]

Hi Mr squeaks,

You know they say God made us all "special". Well Randy may be a little more special than most!! If you know waht I mean. lol lol lol lol

[ace in the hole]

A quick update,

70 birds went 6 1/2 miles yesterday. 65 of them were back in the loft less than 1 1/2 hours after their release. Head count last night 69. This morning #70 came home at 9am.

Today they will just loft fly and tomorrow back to 6 1/2 miles in smaller groups all but Club Auction Bird FM 5456 who came in this morning. She will be held back and fed all she wants today and tomorrow. She must have been in the air all day yesterday trying to find home. She has lost wait and is just beat. This is a nice hen out of the breeders Randy sent me.

Ace

[re lee]

Originally Posted by hillfamilyloft

All can win at futurity distance, but have their strengths. My first family will do best in tough headwind races. Family two could easily win a blow home 300 mile race. They are strong around 200 - 250. Out of the 16 birds that I bred and sent to ace, all family one birds were bred for the Action race 320 miles, two birds crossed family 1 x family 2 and two out of family two were auction birds. The other birds were club banded.

In the "hot dog" club that Ace flies in they have races from 100 to 350 ybs and 100 - 400 as old birds. Thus needing two types of birds, sprinters and middle distance type birds. I used my Bob Kinney birds as the base for my middle distance birds. They are Janssen x Gordon. He won everything with these birds. Sprinters x long distance birds. My thoughts are this would be a good foundation for a tough middle distance family. For a 320 mile race this was our choice. I have won 300 miles, 2 at 250 miles and an average speed 100mi to 340mi futurity with these birds. They get stronger with distance.

Now rember Gordans First Not real Gordons left As its been some years since Morris gordan died. Now Gordan used Osmans and Buittas in his development Of his Gordans. AND he said of his own bird Young birds raced hard during young bird race season HE would never use as a breeder. As he fewlty this stunted and reduce there over all quality. His birds were considered more or less third year birds. They performed best as full mature old birds. And as noticed they matured at a somwhat slowere rate But as 3 year old looked great and raced great. I used to race and keep Gordans in the 1970s Had some directly from Gordan. They performed better as young after the 20 to 250 mile races. They would perhaps give an edge on hard races for a cross. And I know of some who still say the raise a nd breed Gordans I feel they real gordan birds have been bred out Because any birds That Gordan had raised is long since Gone only great great, great, great ,grandchildren would be around Those bred down from Gordans birds. My last true Gordan was an 1969 bird