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ejb3810 ejb3810 is offline
Posted 2nd October 2012, 12:39 PM
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The concept of crossing inbred lines of pigeons is commonly used by the most successful and renowned European pigeon fanciers I believe. When ever you read an article on these individuals you see a line which states that they are constantly looking for that exceptional bird to try with their existing colony. The crosses do not always produce the desired result, and if not they quickly go on to something else.


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jtronics jtronics is offline
Posted 2nd October 2012, 08:23 PM
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Originally Posted by ejb3810 View Post
The concept of crossing inbred lines of pigeons is commonly used by the most successful and renowned European pigeon fanciers I believe. When ever you read an article on these individuals you see a line which states that they are constantly looking for that exceptional bird to try with their existing colony. The crosses do not always produce the desired result, and if not they quickly go on to something else.
i think Cross Inbreed is the nearest way to Breed World Class racing Pigeons.. it also stated in diff fancier article..

why does those renowned fancier need other strain to cross to their strain?

if you hav one exceptional bird and you inbreed the outcome is the same as the foundation.. Exceptional bird need other strain to produce exceptional world class bird..

Some will says they do the same thing.. the question is? is that the exceptional bird you own?

If its not the cross inbreed? how many type of breeding do pigeons hav? (inbreeding, line breed, crossbreed)

line breed probably not because it concentrates the genes of a particular individual in the gene pool from which you are breeding same as inbreeding
crossbreeding you will got 50/50 (best x best not hundred percent offsfring are best)

i am not as experience as you guys im just sharing what iv read in some articles and others.. this topic will lead us (new fancier) for better and not repeatedly doing some false breeding preparation..

Last edited by jtronics; 7th October 2012 at 03:45 AM.
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SmithFamilyLoft SmithFamilyLoft is offline
Posted 2nd October 2012, 09:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtronics View Post
i think Cross Inbreed is the nearest way to Breed World Class racing Pigeons.. it also stated in diff fancier article..

why does those renowned fancier need other strain to cross to their strain?

if you hav one exceptional bird and you inbreed the outcome is the same as the foundation.. Exceptional bird need other strain to produce exceptional world class bird..

Some will says they do the same thing.. the question is? is that the exceptional bird you own?

If its not the cross inbreed? how many type of breeding do pigeons hav? (inbreeding, line breed, crossbreed)

line breed probably not because it concentrates the genes of a particular individual in the gene pool from which you are breeding same as inbreeding
crossbreeding you will got 50/50

i am not as experience as you guys im just sharing what iv read in some articles and others.. this topic will lead us (new fancier) for better and not repeatedly doing some false breeding preparation..
You make valid good point. Stated in a slightly different way.

Inbreeding = produce more of same

Which is why when inbreeding only use exceptional specimens, no point inbreeding average pigeons, you just get more average.

When great racer and breeding specimen of inbred family line is X with exceptional bird from unique inbreed line = hybrid vigor is produced, vitality and possibility of new and exciting developments = in theory possible to produce better racing Champion then either parent ! This is where legends can be made.

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Now having said all that. Like any other tool, that we fanciers have in our tool boxes. There is nothing particularly magic about tools such as out crossing, inbreeding, line breeding and etc. If you have some number of average pigeons, these tools in and of themselves, will not cause your very typical pigeons to start producing something better then typical.

These tools and some exceptional pigeons, and you can take your colony to the next level. The inbreeding sets the trait into the family line, the out cross provides the genetic variability, and hybrid vigor which can be invaluable when vitality is needed for exceptional physical feats. And like any other tool, it sometimes is misused and over used, and misstated or over rated.

I digress with a side note. Recently a pigeon web site had some ads on their site which I clicked on. The ad was something like "How to Breed Champion Racing Pigeons", and how one can make "hundreds" of dollars selling breeding stock, and winning big money races ! Here we are debating these issues, and here all the "secrets" are all there for only $27 !!!

That got me to thinking, I can't afford to give up my "secrets" for $27 as that wouldn't cover my bar tab at lunch. But, perhaps I would offer a weekend seminar and cocktail reception. Perhaps a tour of some local breeding facilities, where for perhaps the first time in one's life, you can actually see how it is done. Might be able to put together some kind of package deal to include rooms and a few meals etc. Maybe we can get it down to $995, and if one race's professionally, then it would be a tax deductible business expense. Don't know how many takers there might be, I might have to throw in my personally guided tour of the battlefield at Gettysburg, Pa. or a tour of the Harley Motorcycle plant, or the YORK barbell company !
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Xueoo Xueoo is offline
Posted 3rd October 2012, 10:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ejb3810 View Post
The concept of crossing inbred lines of pigeons is commonly used by the most successful and renowned European pigeon fanciers I believe. When ever you read an article on these individuals you see a line which states that they are constantly looking for that exceptional bird to try with their existing colony. The crosses do not always produce the desired result, and if not they quickly go on to something else.
"Existing colony" does not refer to inbred birds specifically. Most breeders in the Netherlands and Belgium don't inbreed.
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SmithFamilyLoft SmithFamilyLoft is offline
Posted 4th October 2012, 12:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Xueoo View Post
"Existing colony" does not refer to inbred birds specifically. Most breeders in the Netherlands and Belgium don't inbreed.
Come on now, is that really true ? Do the majority of those lofts really have colonies of unrelated birds ? I am sorry, I just do not believe that. They may not practice it in the manner that a typical American loft might, because Americans may in fact be inbreeding when there is no call for it, but that is another discussion.

I can say for a fact, that the great fancier Ludo Claessen did indeed practice inbreeding, as his colony was a closely related family which some would call a "strain". Some of his winning racers were imported into the USA to my loft, where they were bred to pigeons descended from Claessen champions which Mike Ganus and Ed Minnvile had imported into the USA.

Starting in 2013, I am moving away from the model I have employed since 2002. I was moving in the direction of maintaining several different genetic lines and crossing for racers, such as our 2007 350 mile 1st Place Flamingo International Challenge winner. It was hard to argue with such success, as dozens of good winners were produced using these methods, including the Pigeon Talk 2010 Classic 1st Place winner.

A member here on Pigeon Talk, inadvertently assisted me in making a revolutionary, perhaps just plain radical decision. For me, it was like an Epiphany, where it became crystal clear what direction I must take to go forward, and in my case it was to go back to the future.

I don't know why exactly I started with this idea of starting from the ground up, and building a whole new genetic line by blending the best obtainable, based on performance standards. I felt like I was working on 8 different projects and quite frankly based on the time which had elapsed, I began to calculate I would run out of time, before I achieved my goals. Just wouldn't have enough decades to complete the job.

So this week, some of my breeding Champions were removed from the Smith Family Loft's, and more will follow in the days and weeks ahead. Those earlier breeding champs represent what I now see as genetic diversions. This new found best friend, with his interest in improving his breeding stock, caused me take a real long hard look at what I was actually doing to Breed World Class Champion Pigeons , I soon discovered, upon close personal self analysis, that I was talking the talk, but not walking the walk.

I am afraid, that somewhere along the line, my "ego" got in the way of progress, as I had visions of gingerbread houses or something in my head, where the "Smith" would represent the best from various genetic lines and blending them to create the "Smith" strain. I confess for all here to read, I don't have the facilities, nor the projected life span, to tie all these ends together into a coherent package, so I am no longer going to waste valuable time or resources in order to reinvent the wheel.

2013 will mark a new beginning, in that I will now focus my personal attentions on nothing other then developing the Ludo Claessen pigeons that I have been so privileged to have owned. Last year and this year has shown me that nothing produced up to this point, regardless of the numbers of wins, has been any more magnificent then my "pure" Claessen pigeons. Because of the very small number of original Ludo Claessen pigeons in North America, and the small numbers of "Pure" (I know it is not a perfect term) 2nd and 3rd generation Ludo Claessen pigeons available anywhere in the world, the timing of these directional changes is critical.

The death of "First Lady" inbred daughter of the President, dam of a number of One Loft cash winners and grand mother to dozens of various diploma winners, brought home the fact, that the loss of a pre-potent breeder can happen at any time, and are extremely hard to replace. Carelessness on my part, and the seed stock for all of North America could be gone forever.

Inbreeding for me is not a tool, it is the reality of a small gene pool. A closely bred family of exceptional pigeons, was the model that Ludo Claessen employed. Why I thought I could or should start crossing these birds with various lines instead of focusing on simply producing more of the same for some period of time, is a question I am not able to answer.

My model going forward is to manage the colony as if it were a single entity. There will be no various and different lines maintained in order to cross, other then separate lines or branches within the same Ludo Claessen family tree.

For those not familiar with Ludo's work, please note some of the lines in this article..."The Taste of the Inbred" : http://smithfamilyloft.com/LudoHistory1.htm

And in this section notice how he brought in very exceptional birds to cross into the colony like "Klak"

And part two : http://smithfamilyloft.com/LudoHistory1.htm

When one studies the various family trees which were published, and on his methods, one finds he rarely kept more then a few dozen pigeons over the winter. And he was extreme in his methods.

Own some of his birds, and thirty + years of work have already been done for you in terms of setting those important winning traits into your colony. Taking up breeding boxes in order to maintain different lines, just to be able to produce bunches of hybrids on demand, has now become in my mind, wasted opportunity. So, I told a very long story in order to share that I may reduce as much as half my stock or more, in order to focus on my best line, and removing all of the others to affiliate lofts. In other words I am doubling and tripling down on my foundation bets.
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jtronics jtronics is offline
Posted 4th October 2012, 03:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xueoo View Post
"Existing colony" does not refer to inbred birds specifically. Most breeders in the Netherlands and Belgium don't inbreed.
Janssen Brothers do linebreed and inbreed. they from Belgium..

The breeding methods of Janssen brothers (partial):

Methods:
Two full/half brothers. one mated to the other's daughter
Two full/half brothers. one's son mated to the other's daughter
Two full sisters, or half sisters bred from the same father. one mated to the other's son
brother and sister mating, both bred from same father but different mothers.

Last edited by jtronics; 4th October 2012 at 03:31 AM.
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ejb3810 ejb3810 is offline
Posted 4th October 2012, 06:03 AM
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Warren, to my way of thinking, You are right on target! I believe that most, if not all, of the renowned fanciers (named Strain makers) that have consistently produced winner after winner, champion after champion and exceptional producing colonies have done so with inbred genetics. They may not all have expressly promoted that as their breeding philosophy, but they in fact employed the concept. Some of these people were not especially keen to share all of their knowledge.
In animal husbandry the key to success is the concentration of genes that result in fixing desired traits. In pigeons we primarily need to fix speed in flight, orienting ability and vitality. Other factors are of minor concern?
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hillfamilyloft hillfamilyloft is offline
Posted 4th October 2012, 04:54 PM
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Mark, Ace in the Hole, has not chimed in to this conversation, but we both have talked and he practices, reducing breeding stock on a regular schedule. In other words to cream the crop.
I agree with what much to Warren is saying. I think a guy would be better off to every few years do what Ludo did. Cut down to those select birds that are your best. Warren may be the only one in the world with pure Ludo birds in a few year. Many brought them in to cross with their families of birds. In the eight years that I have been breeding my colony of birds, I keep going back to a handful of birds that have brought me my best results. I may be getting to that time when my breeders all look the same. Like Warren's will very soon. I may keep running around 20 pairs to get the numbers I need to test, but they will start looking very similar in Pedigree. This next year, I will have five brothers and their father in the stock loft. I will have close to 10 direct children of another cock bird etc. Anything not related two these two might go. Thinking you might see both of these guys in every birds pedigree soon. As for hens, they are also key to the mix. Thinking about cleaning house. As soon as I can sit down and study things properly.
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hillfamilyloft hillfamilyloft is offline
Posted 4th October 2012, 05:15 PM
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This year I only have about 8 birds flying in races. This last weekend, one was 15th vs 322 birds. The flyer of the bird is a first year flyer. The bird is off a sibling of my second high points and best young bird in 07. These are off the aforementioned birds. Another sibling of theirs bred a winner last year. Every year my best birds are related back to the two cock birds. Might be time to breed a bit closer to those two now that they are getting a bit older. I have yet to be able to race a loft full of children and grandchildren of the two. Sometimes I think I get caught up in what Warren described as outcrossing for racing. Multiple families crossed into these two lines. Still not convinced that there is anything out there better than what I have. At least for my competition. May also turn to inbreeding and inbreeding to infuse the colony with the blood.
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re lee re lee is offline
Posted 4th October 2012, 08:09 PM
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While inbreeding a famlyt line group of birds. ONE shoulds still have several exsisting famliy groups in that same line. And use those groups to also cross into the othere family groups. MEANING. Say the ludo birds. Have a idea on building around say THREE lines making 3 family groups of the LUDO birds. Then As needed a direct OUTCROSS from certion lines that have showed to cross well with the LUDO birds. Doing this Years go by without the birds getting to close. And it works. Just as well For a beginner to start with NO more then 3 lines of birds and purchase again from those same lines. As this shoretens the spread and increases the known results.. As I said many times In the breeding loft the idea is to produce oof spring as good or better then the parent birds. IF the birds have not produced birds as good or better then the parents in 3 years remove them. If they have produced better remove them. As you now have better.. With exception to a key breeder bird The prpotent type that speads quality. this bird remains a keeper. Evan with young bird racing only. You still must look beyond the winner and remember a winners grand children may be the better flyers. So time in season the 3 year concept lets one see clear. Bird start to look alike as they are selcted as like birds. MANS idea. when off set is to improve. Want speed then breed the faster birds to slower birds to improve there speeds. Breed sprint birds for oriontation to the middle distance. And send tougher weather birds to each race incase something changes along with your other select birds. And Breed for today. Meaning your birds have and need to be hawk aware Birds. As Hawks In the US Remember the strain makers. Or the greats of the past did cross But used birds that were known to cross well into there lines. So out cross as NEEDED not as wanted. And use the 3 years idea there. BUT Just My short minded Thoughts. Do not know why I posted This subject just made me say somthing
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SmithFamilyLoft SmithFamilyLoft is offline
Posted 4th October 2012, 10:32 PM
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Originally Posted by re lee View Post
While inbreeding a famlyt line group of birds. ONE shoulds still have several exsisting famliy groups in that same line. And use those groups to also cross into the othere family groups. MEANING. Say the ludo birds. Have a idea on building around say THREE lines making 3 family groups of the LUDO birds. Then As needed a direct OUTCROSS from certion lines that have showed to cross well with the LUDO birds. Doing this Years go by without the birds getting to close. And it works. Just as well For a beginner to start with NO more then 3 lines of birds and purchase again from those same lines. As this shoretens the spread and increases the known results.. As I said many times In the breeding loft the idea is to produce oof spring as good or better then the parent birds. IF the birds have not produced birds as good or better then the parents in 3 years remove them. If they have produced better remove them. As you now have better.. With exception to a key breeder bird The prpotent type that speads quality. this bird remains a keeper. Evan with young bird racing only. You still must look beyond the winner and remember a winners grand children may be the better flyers. So time in season the 3 year concept lets one see clear. Bird start to look alike as they are selcted as like birds. MANS idea. when off set is to improve. Want speed then breed the faster birds to slower birds to improve there speeds. Breed sprint birds for oriontation to the middle distance. And send tougher weather birds to each race incase something changes along with your other select birds. And Breed for today. Meaning your birds have and need to be hawk aware Birds. As Hawks In the US Remember the strain makers. Or the greats of the past did cross But used birds that were known to cross well into there lines. So out cross as NEEDED not as wanted. And use the 3 years idea there. BUT Just My short minded Thoughts. Do not know why I posted This subject just made me say somthing
Wow Robert....so many relevant good points ! I really do appreciate it when you post your thoughts on a subject.

#1 Different "lines" within the same tree...or different branches, but from same tree. I know you have shared similar thoughts in the past. Years ago I was susceptible to the suggestion to "cross them" and of course the constant bombardment of the "evils" or uselessness etc of "Inbreeding". So I came to think of "crossing" in terms of a complete outcross. Fortunately, I was careful enough to maintain a few "straight" pairings during this time, so all has not been lost. But, your words I know are true, and using Ludo as an example because he is who I am most familiar with, had a number of distinct number branches, which I am fortunate I think, to own originals that are somewhat distant relatives from each other and and 2nd/3rd generation specimens. So, as you suggest, that is indeed the process I will employ.

#2 The so called "Key" pre-potent breeders I also agree 100%....should be kept for their productive life, unless I guess college tuition is due and you are broke.

#3 Outcross when needed - In theory, the more inbred the colony becomes, the quality of the birds as racers begins to decrease due to inbreeding depression. On the other hand in theory, their value as breeders increases. The challenge is to introduce the outcross when needed. And perhaps needed is a very key word. And if the information I have is correct, then in 30 years time, Ludo is said to have introduced a cross fewer then 10 times. The math suggests perhaps about every three years ?

Some other good thoughts and ideas posted by others as well. I guess in theory many of us posting and reading these posts have a basic understanding as to what is required, it's the putting it into practice, which is the hard part. How many of us are maintaining a breeding colony is which say 20% of them are producing 80% of the most exceptional birds ? And in which 80% of the breeders produce only 20% of the exceptional offspring ?

If your % work out about that way, then one must consider that among those 80%, some might be some pretty good birds. Maybe some good pairs for a new fancier or someone wanting to improve what they already own. I am assuming here they are "good" or no point in you having them in first place. Remove some in that 80% group in order to make room for this years racing champs. Give some others a chance at bat inside the breeding loft ! However, I suspect most don't do this, and we also know that the really good fanciers do.

If this is all true, then best course of action would be to the follow the example of the really great fanciers, and don't follow the example of the unsuccessful.
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jtronics jtronics is offline
Posted 7th October 2012, 07:01 AM
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Is "Stock sense" consider?

by Silvio Mattacchione
There are some people who really do have a gift with animals. This gift of recognizing quality in animals is called stock sense.

As i read Ludo History

"Ludo explains, "I don't know how I do it, but I think that I have something in me that says these are top birds, and these are second class."
"There are good pigeons everywhere," said Ludo

How lucky if a fancier hav the strains of ludo , janssen and others good strain.. they can produce more of same by inbreeding/line breeding.. But for new fancier with out those good strains who is seeking on "How to breed world class champion racing pigeon?" the question will still remain.

Producing more of same will not lead to the next level unless there is a cross..

Last edited by jtronics; 7th October 2012 at 07:07 AM.
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ejb3810 ejb3810 is offline
Posted 7th October 2012, 07:20 AM
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" Stock Sense " It is an elusive and mysterious concept to define. I truly believe that it is part experience and part some innate ability that not all are gifted with. It seems that some are more able to pair animals in a manner that produces consistent top progeny. On the other hand, it seems that most are doomed to produce mediocrity from brood stock of similar quality as the outstanding breeders?
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ace in the hole ace in the hole is offline
Posted 7th October 2012, 07:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtronics View Post
Is "Stock sense" consider?

by Silvio Mattacchione
There are some people who really do have a gift with animals. This gift of recognizing quality in animals is called stock sense.

As i read Ludo History

"Ludo explains, "I don't know how I do it, but I think that I have something in me that says these are top birds, and these are second class."
"There are good pigeons everywhere," said Ludo

How lucky if a fancier hav the strains of ludo , janssen and others good strain.. they can produce more of same by inbreeding/line breeding.. But for new fancier with out those good strains who is seeking on "How to breed world class champion racing pigeon?" the question will still remain.

Producing more of same will not lead to the next level unless there is a cross..
"STOCK SENSE"

This is something that few breeders have and even fewer use it the way they know they should. True stock sense does not have favorites. If the bird is not as close to perfect as you have seen with a race record / breeding record to match it should not stay...

"There are good pigeons everyware"

That is true but most flyers don't know what they have or how to breed them. It does not matter what family or line of birds most flyers would have. Most pigeon flyer could have the best racers in the country but after five years of their hand at breeding this family of birds they will be getting right back to the average birds they had before. It is not just what you have to breed but how you breed it. It takes stock sense to keep that family of birds as good as they were when you got them and if you are really good maybe even a little better.

I think I just covered the "They can produce more of the same by inbreeding/line breeding"

No one in the world can take a loft full of Ludo's and breed them the way Ludo himself would have. Even breeders with stock sense will not breed the same because they do not have Ludo's stock sense, they have their own. Every mind is different.
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Last edited by ace in the hole; 7th October 2012 at 07:58 AM.
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ace in the hole ace in the hole is offline
Posted 7th October 2012, 08:15 AM
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It is all about what to cut, what to keep. Not just breeding this good cock with that good hen, but knowing exactly why you put those two birds together. Not because of their lines or their peds, but because of their type, confirmation and their fults or lack of.

I think 50% of stock sense is common sense.
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