Linebreeding / Inbreeding

[SmithFamilyLoft]

My hope here, is that someone will share some of their "secrets". I have attached here an inbreeding roadmap if you will. Most everyone discusses the value of "Crosses" for a family or line of birds. I have seen "Crosses" used to such an extent, that a loft has become a "Heinz 57" of sorts.

Has anyone followed an inbreeding chart such as this ? What has been the results ? Unfortnantly, I have yet to see a roadmap of sorts, which shows how to produce the "Champion". Even if you are starting with a family that has many Champions in the family tree. Where does one start ?

[re lee]

Warren looking at your chart. It seems to me that the inbreeding program per the chart. Gets tight fast. And this is offspring of the one pair. Would not this pattern reduce size and vigor. And reduced breeding performance. Where as Say you have a key cock. We will call it a prepotent bird. You want to spread it out on several key useable hens. Introduce its blood to build a family aruond that bird. Then cross cousins aunts uncles father daughter grand children And such to keep the line going. The champion bird You look for is for flying So tested proven flyers will tell the tell. Fly them if you will young bird yearling and one oldbird season. 3 years As young birds you start getting a picture. yearling shows more full old bird tests the past perfomance. Breed only from the best performers weighing in though one bird proved well the other was more consistent. Put these birds back in the program. And you have also spread the key bird prepotent bird 2 years futher in the family building. Those young are showing therew worth So now 6 years goes by Just a hand ful meet that need. Each year basicly after the first 3 years You are putting birds back into the family that take you forward Then as you will probably have several key birds you build different families. Within your own loft. Out crossing to the differnt family lines You bring in no New birds. UNLESS the are bred down from your base line. Keeping more pure what you have. SAy you have 6 family lines in your loft. Several courses to build off. Or say you have 3 still numbers add up. We know you have to maintain a small number of hard weather birds within the program to. for the smash race. A well maintained family can breed for many years. Because several lines a being bred from within the base group. Spread your good cocks out on as many top hens you can bring them closer as you build. Dont try to build tight to fast. As you have you ludlo base. You have there papers I asume. The birds that have performed well for you Not there paper at first. Choose the top birds Look then at there papers for past breeding. What relation do they hold Do not try to bring back a past key bird from the inbreeding. Breed for now what you have. Bringing back the past without having the past can not really be done. Unless you have a key direct from that bird. to build with. I guess what I am saying each family starts from when you get the birds and how you take them forward. You I are not the family line originater. So all we can do is take them forward how we understand to build off. And when we produce better then what we started with The old is phased out To go forward. Say you have a great cock tried it for thre years could not produce better bird or just as good of birds. Is it helping you to keep it NO. It does not either reproduce its quality. Or has reproduced better then its self. So either the line moves forward. Or is froze in time for you. Time to take the bird out of the program Or Build from its improved line. Many times you see on paper 20 30 years back a great bird appeared. You know I know We do not come close to building by going back that far. Sure its in the line But its just that It has taken the person forward They have built off it And gone past its needs. I have had papers taking me back 40 years. good records But today Is where we are. We build from this point. You are lucky from what I have read To have a good base line to go with. And you have the key you need. spread it around in your different family lines And the results speak for its self. I better stop with this book I wrote. Soory I got off on A bunch of words. Hope I made some small point. Good luck

[SmithFamilyLoft]

Re Lee,

Thankyou for your thoughts. I guess my mind works better with an actual chart of sorts. I am going on the assumption that the birds chosen for breeding purposes are based on a demonstration of the "Right Stuff" and not simply a pedigree. I also do not want to focus simply on the cocks like many people do, since I am aware that some strains favor the hens and not the cocks.
You make some very good points, and thanks to breeding software, I am able to "Look" at many combinations on paper before actually putting various birds together. You are correct I believe that already after just a generation or two, that I have already put my "Stamp" on this strain. One of the things I have zeroed in on, is our 300 mile race station. In my case it is 336 miles, and I have been keeping the birds that have won diplomas at this race station. My thinking behind this, is that most of the big money one loft races are at 300 miles.
I appreciate your "book", like words from my mentors, it may be some time before I am able to "absorb" all the information you kindly provided.

[re lee]

You are right Key hens are the behind scene to a good breeding program. The best thought to to put birds together that best compliment each other in needs. and balance. a 300 mile point leaves good base to see performance. As you build you will see your chart on the program you are working.

[lordschisto]

good day! where is the chart youre referring to?I dont see one, could you post it or attach to this thread?

[SmithFamilyLoft]

Originally Posted by lordschisto

good day! where is the chart youre referring to?I dont see one, could you post it or attach to this thread?

This was a thread from 2005 and some of my thinking has been modified, as I learn from experience. The chart on my site was replaced with a link to my friend Steven van Breemen and his mini-breeding course:

http://www.smithfamilyloft.com/Genetics1.html

The chart I had displayed, turned out to be a very two edged sword, and dangerous in the hands of a beginner. I now recommend that you start at the mini course and master the fundamentals first. Once I get there myself, I will share my recent theory on the matter. If I achieve another 1st place or equal 1st Place a unprecedented three times in a row, at the Flamingo 350 Mile event, then I will feel comfortable sharing where and how I have progressed up to this point. Right now, I have not convinced myself, that I have mastered the subject matter. In other words, I have not yet become an "expert". So, don't try this kind of stuff at home.

[SmithFamilyLoft]

Originally Posted by re lee

Warren looking at your chart. It seems to me that the inbreeding program per the chart. Gets tight fast. And this is offspring of the one pair. Would not this pattern reduce size and vigor. And reduced breeding performance. Where as Say you have a key cock. We will call it a prepotent bird. You want to spread it out on several key useable hens. Introduce its blood to build a family aruond that bird. Then cross cousins aunts uncles father daughter grand children And such to keep the line going. The champion bird You look for is for flying So tested proven flyers will tell the tell. Fly them if you will young bird yearling and one oldbird season. 3 years As young birds you start getting a picture. yearling shows more full old bird tests the past perfomance. Breed only from the best performers weighing in though one bird proved well the other was more consistent. Put these birds back in the program. And you have also spread the key bird prepotent bird 2 years futher in the family building. Those young are showing therew worth So now 6 years goes by Just a hand ful meet that need. Each year basicly after the first 3 years You are putting birds back into the family that take you forward Then as you will probably have several key birds you build different families. Within your own loft. Out crossing to the differnt family lines You bring in no New birds. UNLESS the are bred down from your base line. Keeping more pure what you have. SAy you have 6 family lines in your loft. Several courses to build off. Or say you have 3 still numbers add up. We know you have to maintain a small number of hard weather birds within the program to. for the smash race. A well maintained family can breed for many years. Because several lines a being bred from within the base group. Spread your good cocks out on as many top hens you can bring them closer as you build. Dont try to build tight to fast. As you have you ludlo base. You have there papers I asume. The birds that have performed well for you Not there paper at first. Choose the top birds Look then at there papers for past breeding. What relation do they hold Do not try to bring back a past key bird from the inbreeding. Breed for now what you have. Bringing back the past without having the past can not really be done. Unless you have a key direct from that bird. to build with. I guess what I am saying each family starts from when you get the birds and how you take them forward. You I are not the family line originater. So all we can do is take them forward how we understand to build off. And when we produce better then what we started with The old is phased out To go forward. Say you have a great cock tried it for thre years could not produce better bird or just as good of birds. Is it helping you to keep it NO. It does not either reproduce its quality. Or has reproduced better then its self. So either the line moves forward. Or is froze in time for you. Time to take the bird out of the program Or Build from its improved line. Many times you see on paper 20 30 years back a great bird appeared. You know I know We do not come close to building by going back that far. Sure its in the line But its just that It has taken the person forward They have built off it And gone past its needs. I have had papers taking me back 40 years. good records But today Is where we are. We build from this point. You are lucky from what I have read To have a good base line to go with. And you have the key you need. spread it around in your different family lines And the results speak for its self. I better stop with this book I wrote. Soory I got off on A bunch of words. Hope I made some small point. Good luck

Gee....Looking back....Robert was much wiser then I first thought back in 2005. I set myself back several years, and perhaps many lost opportunities, because I did not consider that very simple line in this post. Got too overly concerned with the idea of engineering a strain by way of following a chart or a preconceived plans based on pedigrees and charts.

Truth is...in 2005 I was not nearly as smart as I thought I was. Many of my early sucesses were just plain dumb luck, plain and simple. A pair of brother/sister late hatches which paired and produced by accident and produced winners and great breeders, etc. While my "Perfect" on paper, planned pedigree type pairings, often produced very typical or below average results. So take everything I say with a grain of salt. I'm still in research mode and learning this myself.

[SmithFamilyLoft]

Originally Posted by SmithFamilyLoft

Gee....Looking back....Robert was much wiser then I first thought back in 2005. I set myself back several years, and perhaps many lost opportunities, because I did not consider that very simple line in this post. Got too overly concerned with the idea of engineering a strain by way of following a chart or a preconceived plans based on pedigrees and charts.

Truth is...in 2005 I was not nearly as smart as I thought I was. Many of my early sucesses were just plain dumb luck, plain and simple. A pair of brother/sister late hatches which paired and produced by accident and produced winners and great breeders, etc. While my "Perfect" on paper, planned pedigree type pairings, often produced very typical or below average results. So take everything I say with a grain of salt. I'm still in research mode and learning this myself.

I can even look back to this thread in 2009, and claim that I didn't know then what I know now. And as of this day January 12, 2012, I can still say with conviction that I don't even know what I don't know.