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1pigeon 1pigeon is offline
Posted 27th January 2007, 03:42 PM
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 150

Meuleman strain


i am interested in this stain since start racing,Wondering which loft carry best Meuleman.


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hillfamilyloft hillfamilyloft is offline
Posted 27th January 2007, 06:40 PM
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Farmingon New Mexico
Age: 49
Posts: 3,609
Not sure who has the best Muelmans. But Van Elsaker founded his loft from a few good muelmans from Michelson. The likes of Ludo Clausens also looked to Michelson for a few birds. I got the Ludo info from Warren, you may ask him if the Ludos are down from the Muelmans. I know the Van Elsaker crossed in some other birds such as the Simmons Janssens. Here is a link. CBS has Van Elsaker birds from time to time.
http://www.vanelsacker-jepsen.com/pr...n.php#englisch
Randy
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SmithFamilyLoft SmithFamilyLoft is offline
Posted 13th February 2007, 09:37 AM
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Country: United States
Posts: 5,367
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1pigeon View Post
i am interested in this stain since start racing,Wondering which loft carry best Meuleman.
Hello 1 Pigeon,

The loft's which claim a "Meuleman" base, and are winning National One Loft competition, would be the loft I would select for the best "Meuleman's".

Of course, in reality, the best you could say at this point, is that a particular loft has birds which are descendents of birds, and perhaps quite a number of generations distant, from birds bred by Meuleman, in their breeding program. Which really means, they are only Meuleman base.

The real question, is have you fallen in love with the story of a family of pigeons, from long ago, and now want to own some of their line bred descendents as a nostalgic kind of thing ? Or are you interested in owning racing pigeons which are going to be competitive in racing ?

Last edited by SmithFamilyLoft; 25th February 2007 at 08:14 AM. Reason: Meuleman is not deceased, referred to him that way
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1pigeon 1pigeon is offline
Posted 13th February 2007, 11:13 AM
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by SmithFamilyLoft View Post
Hello 1 Pigeon,

The loft's which claim a "Meuleman" base, and are winning National One Loft competition, would be the loft I would select for the best "Meuleman's".

Of course, in reality, the best you could say at this point, is that a particular loft has birds which are descendents of birds, and perhaps quite a number of generations distant, from birds once bred by Meuleman, in their breeding program. Which really means, they are only Meuleman base.

The real question, is have you fallen in love with the story of a family of pigeons, from long ago, and now want to own some of their line bred descendents as a nostalgic kind of thing ? Or are you interested in owning racing pigeons which are going to be competitive in racing ?
HI Warren
i haven't read much about strains i choosed/buy all of my pigeons from there performed .... i have 1 Meuleman cock bird that got form Damon Raze. Bird won a few diplomas bred some winner. when i got this bird i really love him ..his eyes,body and how he walk,stand ....So i think i like to pairing him with the same strain..so start looking for 1 Meuleman hen. I worte to Horst Hackemer asked for 1 Meuleman hen since i live 50 min. from him but all of his birds sold out this year.
Warren about thinking winning or competitive in racing i have to hold back on that..this year i try to breed YB that come from performed breeders and race them with all my best and see how i doing.
Thanks

Last edited by SmithFamilyLoft; 25th February 2007 at 08:16 AM. Reason: Edited my earlier post
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SmithFamilyLoft SmithFamilyLoft is offline
Posted 13th February 2007, 11:49 AM
Join Date: Nov 2004
Country: United States
Posts: 5,367
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1pigeon View Post
HI Warren
........................ i have 1 Meuleman cock bird that got form Damon Raze. Bird won a few diplomas bred some winner. when i got this bird i really love him ..his eyes,body and how he walk,stand ....So i think i like to pairing him with the same strain..so start looking for 1 Meuleman hen........Warren about thinking winning or competitive in racing i have to hold back on that..this year i try to breed YB that come from performed breeders and race them with all my best and see how i doing.
Thanks
Just my two cents, and take it for what it is worth. I would give some serious consideration to this line of thinking. Take this pedigree that you have on this nice Cock bird that you have, and seal it in an envelope and lock it up somewhere and forget about it.

Forget about "strain", especially one that is decades in the past....forget about pedigree....just pretend you caught him wild in a barn somewhere...and find the best hen that you can acquire. By that I mean a racing and a breeding history, and even more inportant then that, a hen which will compliment the physical traits of your cock bird.

My point is, forget what name or brand has been attached to this bird, you apparently got your hands on a decent cock bird, so go and pair it to a Champion type bird, and don't worry or concern yourself with the "strain". Instead concern yourself with how to go about finding an exceptional breeding canidate, and then you just might breed some more race winners, and then you have the start of a 1st Place Pigeon Strain....
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1pigeon 1pigeon is offline
Posted 13th February 2007, 02:59 PM
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by SmithFamilyLoft View Post
Just my two cents, and take it for what it is worth. I would give some serious consideration to this line of thinking. Take this pedigree that you have on this nice Cock bird that you have, and seal it in an envelope and lock it up somewhere and forget about it.

Forget about "strain", especially one that is decades in the past....forget about pedigree....just pretend you caught him wild in a barn somewhere...and find the best hen that you can acquire. By that I mean a racing and a breeding history, and even more inportant then that, a hen which will compliment the physical traits of your cock bird.

My point is, forget what name or brand has been attached to this bird, you apparently got your hands on a decent cock bird, so go and pair it to a Champion type bird, and don't worry or concern yourself with the "strain". Instead concern yourself with how to go about finding an exceptional breeding canidate, and then you just might breed some more race winners, and then you have the start of a 1st Place Pigeon Strain....
Thank for you advice warren.
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hillfamilyloft hillfamilyloft is offline
Posted 13th February 2007, 05:40 PM
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Farmingon New Mexico
Age: 49
Posts: 3,609
I agree with warren. If you are looking to be sucessful in racing, find the best hen you can find. You should look the the GHC for your needs. IF Horst is that close so are many fine birds. Look at the race records and visit that loft. If you do not want to pay big bucks, you can go the route of going to the GHC web page and look at their help a beginner program. You can pic decent birds up for free.
Randy
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westy westy is offline
Posted 25th February 2007, 02:28 AM
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: England
Posts: 80
ive had this strain before nice pigeons they are.
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1pigeon 1pigeon is offline
Posted 25th February 2007, 07:53 AM
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 150
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Originally Posted by westy View Post
ive had this strain before nice pigeons they are.
Nice web site .
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powerspigeons powerspigeons is offline
Posted 25th February 2007, 12:38 PM
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Eastern Shore , Maryland
Posts: 25
Gotta Go With Mr Smith On This One. I Have About 20 Strains In My Loft And Most Trace Back To The Janssens Or Van Loon. I Try To Find Birds That Are Winning Big Race's And Build Around That. You Will Drive Yourself Crazy Trying To Aquire Only One Strain That Perform ,because Most Of The Birds That Are Winning Are Crossed With Everything Except The Kitchen Sink. Best Of Luck
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SmithFamilyLoft SmithFamilyLoft is offline
Posted 25th February 2007, 01:22 PM
Join Date: Nov 2004
Country: United States
Posts: 5,367
Quote:
Originally Posted by hillfamilyloft View Post
Not sure who has the best Muelmans. But Van Elsaker founded his loft from a few good muelmans from Michelson. The likes of Ludo Clausens also looked to Michelson for a few birds. I got the Ludo info from Warren, you may ask him if the Ludos are down from the Muelmans. I know the Van Elsaker crossed in some other birds such as the Simmons Janssens. Here is a link. CBS has Van Elsaker birds from time to time.
http://www.vanelsacker-jepsen.com/pr...n.php#englisch
Randy
Randy,

I think I missed this some how...anyway, from all my reading, and from other better read pigeonologists, all of the great strains, or families of birds, normally have several birds from different fanciers in the family tree. Everyone starts from somewhere, and often a number of birds from different fanciers. And as the years and decades go on, other birds from other fanciers are crossed in. Which is why some people I believe, mistakenly think that there are no "Pure Bred" pigeons. To me that is like saying there are no pure bred dogs, because they all descend from wolves.

Often, when the fancier is famous, even if a bird passes throught the loft, it becomes the name of the strain of the famous fancier. Ludo took in a stray, as the story goes and liked it. He found out the owner had died and got permission to keep it. It produced some good racers for Ludo, but he later sold it and moved on to better, now in the pedigrees of the pigeons, that the new owner sells for thousands of dollars, lists the "Strain" of this stray....why a Ludo Claessens of course....

This is why some fanciers dismiss the whole concept of the strain label attached to a pigeon, a generation or so removed from the famous breeder who name is still attached to a bird, he most often has never seen. I don't think that is always the correct view, but this might be for a different thread.

I can answer your question Randy with some authority, Ludo has crossed in birds from the top 1% of Dutch lofts from time to time over the last 35+ years, and I do know that an exceptional Michelson bird was used to produce some exceptional race winners, and some of them became important limbs in the Family Tree. Ludo listed them as "Michelson", so how or where this gentlemen was able to produce such an outstanding bird, I don't know.





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re lee re lee is offline
Posted 25th February 2007, 03:05 PM
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: enid okla
Posts: 4,098
Quote:
Originally Posted by SmithFamilyLoft View Post
Randy,

I think I missed this some how...anyway, from all my reading, and from other better read pigeonologists, all of the great strains, or families of birds, normally have several birds from different fanciers in the family tree. Everyone starts from somewhere, and often a number of birds from different fanciers. And as the years and decades go on, other birds from other fanciers are crossed in. Which is why some people I believe, mistakenly think that there are no "Pure Bred" pigeons. To me that is like saying there are no pure bred dogs, because they all descend from wolves.

Often, when the fancier is famous, even if a bird passes throught the loft, it becomes the name of the strain of the famous fancier. Ludo took in a stray, as the story goes and liked it. He found out the owner had died and got permission to keep it. It produced some good racers for Ludo, but he later sold it and moved on to better, now in the pedigrees of the pigeons, that the new owner sells for thousands of dollars, lists the "Strain" of this stray....why a Ludo Claessens of course....

This is why some fanciers dismiss the whole concept of the strain label attached to a pigeon, a generation or so removed from the famous breeder who name is still attached to a bird, he most often has never seen. I don't think that is always the correct view, but this might be for a different thread.

I can answer your question Randy with some authority, Ludo has crossed in birds from the top 1% of Dutch lofts from time to time over the last 35+ years, and I do know that an exceptional Michelson bird was used to produce some exceptional race winners, and some of them became important limbs in the Family Tree. Ludo listed them as "Michelson", so how or where this gentlemen was able to produce such an outstanding bird, I don't know.





Strain to reset and improve on plus set certion quality improvements. This all takes time, many American racers do not take time, they want it now. Be it race or show top birds trace back to the top breeders when you look at pedigree. a person to build a solid family of birds NEVER wants to start out with more then 3 different lines to cross. Doing so with more takes much harder breeding programs longer result time. As you know You get the bad with the good when you cross the lines. Every person puts there hands on breeding as key birds leave a certion loft. These birds when crossed are base line birds. Or you can stay with the single line and breed your desires into the program. Sure they can be called the set strain name. BUT you see this mostly in AMERICA. other countries the breeder gets credit for his birds AMERICA name sells. .While pedigree info, and performance speaks its own truth. A racing homer is a known breed ,has been for many years started by a breed cross but set a foundation type. Now purebred goes to the fact it is a set breeding Racing homer. Family type goes to the very few that are the strain makers Knowing how to breed the type of birds they need to compete with. 20 different
family strains makes for a long road As in pigeons winer x winner does not get winners. At many times winnners come from buts that are consistant placing near the top often. Or as for show Birds that carry enough balance to breed that into the young. Producing show winners. America many racing birds are sold by pedigree, where key birds are listed. The bird bought may have never raced may have raced and done poor. There you get a paper that shows great lineage, But the bird has to be tested. Bying birds that have won several races or was consistant in several races Proves you got what you paid for. Less chance you bought a mule that looked like a race horse. TAKE the time, buy right, build slow, test results, Keep records, And in time you get to hit the top of the race sheet with your birds. THE best birds in the world not maintained or sold to a person that could not breed them right, are then now better then the 2 dollar bird aND THERE BREEDING GOES DOWN HILL from not working them right in the breeding loft. I have said it befor The prepotent bird which comes along just every so often Is the main key when reconized. You could almost breed it to a rock and raise a good pigeon.That prepotent bird will show in pedigrees of many winning birds. LOOK at all the top breeders They list just a few top birds and then several winning birds bred off those top birds Is the key buying winners after winners or finding or breeding those few key birds that put a mark for years to come on any top loft out there The old saying you have to develop the minds eye for seeing and breeding the birds you choose Strain / family are both the same Out cross family lines for 1 purpose thats improvement. But it is easyer to first is build that foundation befor you tear it down Then when you out cross you know what you want and know how to get it. To many buy and buy pretty birds and then are upset because they never win long or at all. It costs less buying a few good birds at first then years of buying unkown birds ! top pair breeds more winners then 10 20 30 pair of unkown stock. AND in the end quality can be seen all over the loft. I guess I went on more then I needed. Hope I made some sence
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Boenairgeez Boenairgeez is offline
Posted 18th February 2010, 03:36 PM
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 28
i believe your thoughts on strains makes much sense Warren. Except where they have taken pains to continue the strain and to stay genetically sound. i do believe once you leave the original breeder they become different as the same hand is not guiding them. When they came to the fellow who made them they were already all mixed up anyway.
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soymi69 soymi69 is offline
Posted 18th February 2010, 06:36 PM
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Corpus Christi, Texas
Posts: 503
Check out www.racingpigeonusa.com he has some good muelmen and very reasonable price to.
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Xueoo Xueoo is offline
Posted 18th February 2010, 09:01 PM
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Posts: 451
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1pigeon View Post
HI Warren
i haven't read much about strains i choosed/buy all of my pigeons from there performed .... i have 1 Meuleman cock bird that got form Damon Raze. Bird won a few diplomas bred some winner. when i got this bird i really love him ..his eyes,body and how he walk,stand ....So i think i like to pairing him with the same strain..so start looking for 1 Meuleman hen. I worte to Horst Hackemer asked for 1 Meuleman hen since i live 50 min. from him but all of his birds sold out this year.
Warren about thinking winning or competitive in racing i have to hold back on that..this year i try to breed YB that come from performed breeders and race them with all my best and see how i doing.
Thanks
To keep the blood as close as you can to the cock you have, look at his pedigree and see where the birds line originated from and go see if there are any available from that source.

For example, I have birds down from Oak Haven Farms bred close to Verona, 083, 048/049, etc. I look to see who else has birds bred close to these, and if I need to breed out one year, I go looking to those lofts who have birds close to mine. You may be able to get a direct cousin or close family to yours. Of course everybody breeds and selects different and theirs may or may not be on par with yours, but you know they are bred the same as yours and it give you some predictability. If those said lofts are also flying good, you can assume it will likely be a good cross to yours. Always Keep performance in mind when choosing, but, "bred for stock" is just as good.
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