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Doogal Doogal is offline
Posted 24th October 2005, 12:59 PM
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Age: 79
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Paratyphoid Disease and the Vaccine




I have just received from America some Sal-Bac Vaccine now I have been told that if I use this on my race birds they will not perform very well the following season. Will anyone who has used this vaccine give me some guidance.

Regards,
Doogal


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lawman lawman is offline
Posted 24th October 2005, 05:43 PM
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I hope you bought the following (PMV – 1 Vaccine) – Pigeon vaccine (made by Maine Biological Labs)

Its oil base and is the best available here in the states.

I treat for PMV, Salmonila and POX and in that order. I give the first vacine at weening .... approx. 4-5 weeks old. the second at approx 8-9 weeks old and then give a second round booster starting one month afterwards.

I wouldnt risk flying without it.
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Doogal Doogal is offline
Posted 25th October 2005, 04:30 AM
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Age: 79
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Hi Lawman,
Thanks for your reply, the vaccine I purchased is-;Sal-Bac
Salmonella Typhimurium Bactrin have you used this one if so were there any side effects or loss of performance after using it.
Regards,
Doogal
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feralpigeon feralpigeon is offline
Posted 25th October 2005, 06:32 AM
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Northern, CA
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Hi Doogal,

Not into racing, but thought this link might be of interest to you:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showth...Sal-Bac+homers

I would think the protection would be worth it for your birds, although if wanting
more info, the search mode in the toolbar above, or googling in general might give you even more info. There are many folks into breeding/racing here, so I would think you could find some additional info.

Best,

fp
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lawman lawman is offline
Posted 25th October 2005, 12:12 PM
Join Date: Jul 2005
Country: United States
Location: So. California
Posts: 469
Good link to follow for information.

Sal-Bac is probibly the best vaccine for paratyphoid, but its only a portion of the remidy. with the upswing of Circovirus you need to cover all your bases, there is as yet no preventitive treatment for circo.

So you start by giving the birds what treatments you can inorder to prevent them from getting secondary infections. Its the secondary infections (ie pmv, salmonilla, pox, ect...) that will kill them not the circo. the circo will only give the other viruses an opening to attact. So make sure you do preventitive treatment for all three.

At the start of the race season I have never seen any drop in performance, in birds given the treatments verus those that havent been, however by the second or third race your birds are going to come down with everything they have been exposed too. unless they already have the antibodies to fight off the infections.

This is when you see lofts begin to rise to the top ..... their birds are healthy while everyone elses are not only fighting to get home, but are also fighting to stay alive. so by the third or forth race in the season you will see a deffinite difference in performance.
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WhiteWingsCa WhiteWingsCa is offline
Posted 26th October 2005, 05:36 AM
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Ontario, Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lawman
I hope you bought the following (PMV – 1 Vaccine) – Pigeon vaccine (made by Maine Biological Labs)

Its oil base and is the best available here in the states.

I treat for PMV, Salmonila and POX and in that order. I give the first vacine at weening .... approx. 4-5 weeks old. the second at approx 8-9 weeks old and then give a second round booster starting one month afterwards.

I wouldnt risk flying without it.
If you are using only the PMV-1 vaccine for pigeons, then all you are vaccinating for is PMV - not paratyphoid. Different virus, different vaccine. Reading through your post, I *think* you mean that you vaccinate for PMV at 4-5 weeks, then paratyphoid/pox at 8-9 weeks, then the PMV booster ?

That is how most people who vaccinate for all three do it, I believe. PMV vaccine itself is a two shot series for YB's.
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WhiteWingsCa WhiteWingsCa is offline
Posted 26th October 2005, 05:38 AM
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 1,107
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doogal

I have just received from America some Sal-Bac Vaccine now I have been told that if I use this on my race birds they will not perform very well the following season. Will anyone who has used this vaccine give me some guidance.

Regards,
Doogal

I've never heard anything about perfomance the following season... seems a little weird... ? I know of only one person who vaccinates for paratyphoid (we don't see it much, if at all, up here), and her birds are aways at the top of the race sheet, in YB's and OB's....
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pigeonmama pigeonmama is offline
Posted 26th October 2005, 09:05 AM
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Maine
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I give my birds PMV and Paratyphoid vaccine, and then booster shots 4 weeks later on both vaccines, young birds only. Birds previously vaccinated get only one shot of each. Master breeder of VF'S also told me that on the paratyphoid vaccine, I need to give it every 6 months. Nice thing about the paratyphoid vacc,it's easier to give than the PMV. I feel like i"m injecting Elmer's Glue when I give the PMV, it's so thick. OUCH !!!
Daryl
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lawman lawman is offline
Posted 26th October 2005, 12:04 PM
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Hello White Wings,

No, I follow the advise of two different vets. one here in So Cal. Dr Shetrone out of San Diego and Dr Pascal (also a vet) out of the Netherlands. I start my vacines as soon as the birds are weened. Basically the theory is that the sooner you start the vaccinations the better. you have to wait for the birds to be weened otherwise the parents antibodies will fight off the vaccine and it wont take. so per my regimine, PMV, SAL-BAC, then POX (oil based not water) you have to give them individually not altogether or you wont get the full immunization. I space the vaccines two weeks apart and give boosters for the first two , after the pox has totally cleared up.
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WhiteWingsCa WhiteWingsCa is offline
Posted 27th October 2005, 05:34 AM
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Location: Ontario, Canada
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Hi Lawman

We don't vaccinate for pox or paratyphoid 'up here', just PMV. We've started the "vaccinate immediately on weaning" method in our loft this past couple of years, and noticed a huge difference in YB health. So much so, that one group that didn't get vaccinated as they came out of the breeding loft were noticably less healthy than the one that had been vaccinated right away (hubby was working a ton of overtime, and one group just got moved late one evening...). We vaccinated them as soon as we saw this - and they perked right up!

There is a theory that vaccinating them as soon as they are weaned helps kick-start their natural immune system - which helps protect them from any illness in a small way.

Of note - we don't vaccinate for paratyphoid - but we do feed the breeders/weanlings a pellet that contains sal-bac.
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lawman lawman is offline
Posted 27th October 2005, 01:05 PM
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Hi White Wings,

Sounds like your doing pretty much the same thing, just doing the Sal-Bac in the form of a pellet rather than a injection. Unfornunately in Southern Cal. there has been a resurgance of Pox, so for the last couple of years I have been giving them preventitive treatment for that too.

Your right about the different rounds, the ones who go through the program deffenitly look and handle better than those who are not inocculated. I personnelly think they fly overall much better during the entire season as well.
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upcd upcd is offline
Posted 27th December 2005, 11:48 PM
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Why Babies died


Paratyphoid
I have believed for a long time that paratyphoid, or salmonellosis, is more widespread than people are willing to accept. I have even stuck my neck out and stated that I thought it is the rare loft that has no birds infected, at least subclinically, or as carriers, with paratyphoid. Good, healthy birds are fairly resistant to paratyphoid and most loft conditions keep it quiet. For reasons that we don’t understand, it will occasionally just spring up, go wild and reach an epidemic state in a loft.
The organism that causes paratyphoid is a bacterium. It’s classified as a gram-negative rod. This differentiates from other classes of bacteria, and puts it in the same class as some more common organisms. Other bacteria can be present and be considered normal, as long as there’s no disease. With salmonella, you cannot ever consider it normal. Salmonella is a true pathogen. The mere presence of it indicates subclinical disease – paratyphoid.
Salmonella can be carried and spread by rodents, wild birds, or other pigeons. It is passed mainly by their droppings, contaminating feed, but it can be passed other ways, such as in the egg.
On of the most common ways to get paratyphoid in the loft is from infected new pigeons introduced from another loft. You can obtain healthy looking pigeons from another loft, put them in your loft, and they start an infection or become infected. It’s just loft dynamics, and not completely understood. I think strays should never be allowed in the loft, whether it is common pigeons or someone else’s race bird. Segregate them, as well as your own birds that have been lost for several days immediately.
Many outbreaks occur in the breeding loft, late in the breeding season. The birds involved in reproduction reach a weakened state of health because of the severe drain on their body, (1) producing eggs in the female, and (2) producing crop milk in either sex. There is a drain on the body’s immune complexes, or immunoglobulins, during breeding. These are the globulins that are involved in the antibody production. Since so many of these immunoglobulins are incorporated into the yolk and crop milk, it depletes the body’s reserves and makes the immune system more vulnerable.
Classical paratyphoid is often seen in breeding cocks, where a cock gets sick and dies very rapidly. The bird looks fine one day and dead the next. This is a fulminating form that, for some reason, we see more in cocks than in hens. It’s not all in cocks, but it tends to be more prolonged, they often go light and show more classical symptoms including severe weight loss, mucoid “sticky stools, wing boils and liver diseases”.
Other symptoms to look for that make us suspicious of paratyphoid are eggs that seem to “go rotten”. These eggs initially have a developing embryo, but then it dies. These are the eggs that turn black usually. It’s not they are infertile; if they were infertile they would be clear the whole time. The embryo is killed by the infection. The salmonella organism can be on the surface of the egg from being laid by an infected female, or it can actually be incorporated inside the egg, during egg production.
Another classical sign of paratyphoid is youngsters that begin pipping but fail to hatch – “dying in the shell”. This is a major symptom of paratyphoid. It can happen for other reasons, but this should make you suspicious, if you get more than one youngster who can’t complete the pipping process.
Other symptoms to look for with salmonella are youngsters dying in the nest at an early age, especially between 7and 10 days of age. These youngsters usually develop diarrhea and show sighs of dehydration, where the skin gets dark red in color and it loses its healthy look.
Frequently, in a nest of two, one will get sick and die within a few days, while the other one will act perfectly healthy. This is not uncommon with paratyphoid. I think it just means that one did not receive an infective dose. Merely sitting in the nest is not enough to infect it. I don’t think salmonella penetrates the intact skin. I think it is usually ingested.
The other symptoms are sore wing or leg joints, but swelling is not always present, as may believe. It is caused by an inflammation. Salmonella gets into the bloodstream and often localizes in the joint. Classically, the joint that swells is the elbow joint, where you get the typical wing boil. This is very characteristic of salmonellosis or paratyphoid. Sometimes it seems the birds has a tender foot, and will be seen limping around. Often it’s paratyphoid. Other gram negatives such as E. coli and Citrobacter can do this, but the odds are that it’s paratyphoid. Limping can also be caused from physical injury, but if it’s persistent, and if more than one bird is limping, you had better suspect paratyphoid.
Sometimes with paratyphoid, you’ll see tilted head or the twisted neck. A bird with this symptom more frequently has PMV, which can be differentiated from paratyphoid. Paratyphoid can cause micro-abscesses in the brain, resulting in these symptoms. When these birds are agitated, the symptoms don’t worsen. With PMV, when you stimulate the birds, their symptoms become exaggerated. Another symptom common to paratyphoid and PMV is watery droppings, but there is a difference. With PMV, the droppings are clear fluid, which is urine, with squiggles of fairly normal looking feces in it. That’s not true diarrhea. It’s called diuresis.
With paratyphoid, if they develop the diarrhea from, it produces true diarrhea, in which case the stool is actually the liquid part. It usually has a lot of mucous. Sometimes you’ll see little gas bubbles. Sometimes the droppings will have blood, a strange colour and a smell to it, as well.
Other symptoms are weight loss, called “going light”. The two most common things to cause pigeons to go light are paratyphoid and severe worm infestations, especially stomach wall worms, and sometimes, capillaria worms. Worms are easy to rule in or out, and if you can rule them out, odds are it is paratyphoid causing the birds to go light, especially in breeding individuals. Blindness in one eye or both eyes could be a symptom of paratyphoid; so can loss of color in one or both irises.
Trying to identify birds in the loft that are not visibly sick but remain carriers or shedders is extremely difficult. It involves culturing individual pigeons. For some reason, in infected pigeons, salmonella often is difficult to culture out. It’s a fickly organism and you can end up with negative cultures when, in fact, it is still the cause of the disease being investigated. This is further complicated because salmonella is shed intermittently. You can’t take a negative culture to mean the bird is negative for the disease. You have to culture successively, many times, to finally fell comfortable that a bird is not a carrier. It becomes impractical so it’s rarely done.

Prevention
Salmonella can reproduce in the environment. It can live in the liter and soil contaminated with feces. It can live in the environment for a while, but not as well as it can live in the host.
We know that salmonella does not like an acidic environment. By acidifying the environment, it decreases the spread. Sulfur acidifies, so the sodium acid sulfate loft dressings are an aid in the control. Putting alkaline substances down, such as lime, has been suggested in old journal, actually can create an environment conducive to salmonella growth.
Salmonella can be transmitted through drinking water contaminated with feces. A teaspoon of Clorox (household bleach) in the drinking water has been used in lofts that had problems with paratyphoid, and it seems to help arrest the problem. My theory is that the Clorox creates an acid environment in the droppings. Chlorine is excreted through the kidneys, and combined with hydrogen; it makes the urine very acid. This in incorporated in the droppings in the cloaca. The drawback is that Clorox, in all animals, has toxic potential. Personally, I take it out of the water I drink before I drink it. When using bleach in the drinking water never add anything else to it. It is a potent oxidizer and can change other chemicals, sometimes creating toxic substances.
Vaccination is the best aid we have in dealing with paratyphoid. Paratyphoid vaccination cannot give 100% protection, as can PMV vaccination and pox vaccination. Paratyphoid vaccination, because it uses killed bacteria, can only produce a 70% - 80% protective effect.
A booster increases the odds. I recommend, just like I do the PMV, vaccinating all of your young birds as soon as they are all gathered, then vaccinate everything again, just before pairing your breeders.

Treatment
There is no treatment guaranteed to cure paratyphoid. There are some that give treatments a higher degree of success than others. The treatments usually involve a good antibiotic, the best probably being Baytril. The next best is Cephalexin or Amoxicillin. In treating paratyphoid, pigeons should be dosed for a minimum of 10 days and, in an outbreak situation, it helps to vaccinate while they’re on antibiotics. Vaccination does not have a curative affect in birds already infected, although it does stimulate their immune response to salmonella, so it has benefit.
Baytril is fairly harsh on pigeons, especially the liver. For that reason I don’t recommend training hard or racing while birds are on Baytril treatment. Amoxycillin and Cephalexin are easier on the pigeons, but ideally, you should skip a week of training if you are treating. Birds on the race team become poor performers, due to lack of vigor.

In severe outbreak cases, you don’t overcome paratyphoid immediately. You have to “work your way through it.” Sometimes, it takes several years of a good vaccination program, monitoring and having follow up treatments. But with diligence, you can work your way through it and do just fine.
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feralpigeon feralpigeon is offline
Posted 29th December 2005, 11:24 AM
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Northern, CA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by upcd
Paratyphoid


.......Blindness in one eye or both eyes could be a symptom of paratyphoid; so can loss of color in one or both irises.
Hi Debbie,

I'm curious about this statement in regards to the loss of color in one or both irises. Is that as in a ring of white or light color around the remaining colored portion of the iris, a complete loss of color or whatever other description you could give in this area of your post would be appreciated!

Thanks,

fp
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Pidgey Pidgey is offline
Posted 29th December 2005, 12:15 PM
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Debbie... I don't think I've ever seen you say so much at a single whack before! I agree that it's probably a lot more prevalent than we know and there are enough differences in the strains that it presents a bewildering variety of symptoms. Worse, "vertical transmission" (when the disease starts in the egg) can cause the pathogen to change its character and symptoms. I read recently that L-forms should be treated with either Clindamycin or a combination of Erythromycin and Ampicillin (the older form of Amoxicillin) and the prognosis is still guarded.

Pidgey
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upcd upcd is offline
Posted 30th December 2005, 11:02 PM
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Greetings


About the article, This was borrowed from a friend Frank Frail an Indain Fantial breeder. I had a roller change color in the eyes. Thought the bird was going blind, but after eye antiboitics. Color was restored. I am not one of many words but if I find a good report then I will bring it over. I will take your Questions over to My Family Site and see if I can get an anwser for you.
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