Role or Impact of Selective Breeding on Racing Pigeons

[SmithFamilyLoft]

Originally Posted by Pigeonpal2002

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I would like the opportunity to respond to this post by this person and I'm going to.

The question of whether or not a pigeon's "category" is feral or domestic is still a very subjective point of view. Seeing that all domestic pigeons today are direct descendants of the feral rock dove, I fail to see how humans caring for & looking after one or another group/breed/species has any bearing on the facts or basic genetics whatsoever.

Anybody knows that an animal in good care, receiving special care, good quality feed, vitamins, water, will fair better than a "wild" animal that doesn't have those options (for the most part).

There are some genetic aspects of animals that can't really be manipulated by human intervention with extreme breeding over a relatively short period of time. I believe that some of those core limitations are speed, eyesight, hearing etc. These things have developed over an immense period of time and evolution is a very slow phenomenon. Breeding of animals to produce better, stronger, faster is a short sighted "illusion" and when you omit drugs that domestic animals are often given.

Since nobody and including myself has ever taken on the "challenge" to acquire, raise, breed and hone the skills of a completely indigenous and known feral flock of pigeons, these concepts cannot be proved nor disproved. Once a feral pigeon flock is "experimented" with in this manner and given the same time, care and considerations that any of the racing pigeon community has shown their birds, then it would be a true test. Allowing for selective breeding of the best of the wild birds to see what can be gained from those breedings.

My mention of the speeds of the feral pigeon are not off topic at all, it was just a casual rebuttal to your insistance that homing pigeons were superior to ferals.

This is an attempt to move part of a discussion from How Fast Does a Homing Pigeon Fly.

[SmithFamilyLoft]

Originally Posted by SmithFamilyLoft

This is an attempt to move part of a discussion from How Fast Does a Homing Pigeon Fly.

Originally Posted by Pigeonpal2002

I just realized, that I sort of "set myself up" for you to defend your position and I've basically said what you are trying to say in your "not so nice way". It almost does seem like it's all come full circle though. However, I stand firm on my beliefs that no matter what breeders say, their "facts" can't hold a candle next to "God" or evolution or whatever any of you believe in. I believe in evolution and the thousands/millions of years these gradual and small changes required in all of the animal kingdom.

The changes, improvements & ideas that are being suggested here are much too speculative and with many variables.

Still though, I don't believe it would take long to set up such an "experiment".... breed a feral flock of pigeons and who could achieve & maintain the speeds we are talking about. Colours, eyes, feathering, are all secondary genetics and relatively easy to manipulate. The fundamentals and core genetics are much more difficult to change and improve upon in a short span. 150 years, 200, 500 or even a 1000 years are small potatoes in terms that columbidaes have been in existence. :

Second part of moved posts.

[SmithFamilyLoft]

Hello Brad,

I have attempted to move this part of the discussion to a new thread.

If I understand the premise of your theory, then the role of selective breeding by man with all kinds of birds and animals over the last couple of hundred years, has had very minimal impact ? Is that what you are saying ?

You were using the example of a wild colony of pigeons vs. those bred for a very specific task, but I assume you would apply this to various animals, such as chickens, cows, horses, dogs, etc.

In my area, milk cows are very important to the farm community. They use a very selective breeding program in order to produce cows which give more milk. They do not use wild or feral cows. And local racing pigeon fanciers use a selective breeding program to produce homing pigeons which travel long distances to find home quickly. Are you saying these ideas are all wrong ?

[Pigeonpal2002]

Originally Posted by SmithFamilyLoft

Hello Brad,

I have attempted to move this part of the discussion to a new thread.

If I understand the premise of your theory, then the role of selective breeding by man with all kinds of birds and animals over the last couple of hundred years, has had very minimal impact ? Is that what you are saying ?

You were using the example of a wild colony of pigeons vs. those bred for a very specific task, but I assume you would apply this to various animals, such as chickens, cows, horses, dogs, etc.

In my area, milk cows are very important to the farm community. They use a very selective breeding program in order to produce cows which give more milk. They do not use wild or feral cows. And local racing pigeon fanciers use a selective breeding program to produce homing pigeons which travel long distances to find home quickly. Are you saying these ideas are all wrong ?

This is exactly what I'm saying and suggesting. Physical characteristics such as large udders and milk glands in cows are easily manipulated and similarly the colours, sizes, feathers, fur and other physical aspects of any or most animals is easily manipulated.

It's the other genes, the "deeper" ones (if you will) that govern the senses, instincts and limits of what an animal is capable of that are not so easy to improve upon. Only through better food, water, exercise and maybe drugs can we manipulate and "improve" animals from what nature has already bestowed upon them.

It's like saying that humans are faster now than we were 50 years ago. Can you prove this? We have instruments, technology, DRUGS and food that weren't available 50 years ago and some of those things have 'enabled' us to be somewhat faster and better. But the changes in the speeds of us humans doing various tasks is minimal and negligible.

Also, similarly the speeds of race horses haven't really improved by any stretch over the last 40-50 years. It's just that they are now cared for better, given better food options, vitamins, and the technology to record their speeds has become more exact.

[learning]

Originally Posted by Pigeonpal2002

This is exactly what I'm saying and suggesting. Physical characteristics such as large udders and milk glands in cows are easily manipulated and similarly the colours, sizes, feathers, fur and other physical aspects of any or most animals is easily manipulated.

It's the other genes, the "deeper" ones (if you will) that govern the senses, instincts and limits of what an animal is capable of that are not so easy to improve upon. Only through better food, water, exercise and maybe drugs can we manipulate and "improve" animals from what nature has already bestowed upon them.

It's like saying that humans are faster now than we were 50 years ago. Can you prove this? We have instruments, technology, DRUGS and food that weren't available 50 years ago and some of those things have 'enabled' us to be somewhat faster and better. But the changes in the speeds of us humans doing various tasks is minimal and negligible.

Also, similarly the speeds of race horses haven't really improved by any stretch over the last 40-50 years. It's just that they are now cared for better, given better food options, vitamins, and the technology to record their speeds has become more exact.

The problem with this train of thought is that it really doesn't apply to humans because society takes a very dim view of truely selective breeding in the human animal (Adolph Hitler, case in point). It is very much a random selection process in who we choose to reproduce with, not based on any attempts to focus on any one particular trait. This is why the physical gains that have been made by humans can almost exclusively attributed to training, nutrition, health, etc. and not to any significant genetic impact.

Mother nature loves chaos. It is through this chaos the hybrid vigor that we hear so much about in the breeding game is insurred. However, this method, by deffinition, creates a very slow development of characteristics that are most suited to a particular environment. This creates a sort of wonderful mediocrity ( middle of the road adaptations that allow for success in the local environment) that ensurres the survival of that species.

Selctive breeding speeds up this process and focuses on specific desired traits. May I suggest a wonderful article by Mr. Silvio Mattachione of Canada. I think he addresses many of these issues here.

http://www.silvio-co.com/pigeons/darwin.htm

It is a long article but I think it really hits the nail on the head regarding natural selection vs. selective breeding.

Dan

P.S. For some reason I can't get any of my links to work in my posts. If you can't access the article you may have better luck pasting the address into your web browser and going at it that way. Sorry.

[LostPinesLoft]

Hi.
Warren, generally as a bystander in this forum it seems i have noticed more than once people comment on your "not so nice" style or personality, personally i find your forthright communication style to be an admirable quality. "Nice" and wrong I find to be something I would avoid. I think your viewpoint on this thread's primary discussion is most probably correct.

To the point at hand:
Domestic selective breeding for many characteristics (in this case speed & endurance) has been going on for a few hundred years at a minimum. Selective reproduction (decisions by nature) transpiring for thousands of years for the characteristic of survival) obviously could produce a strong pigeon but i doubt it would be a barn burner rocket pigeon, unless those rock nesting hens were waiting at the finishline of the weekly caveman classic pigeon race.(sorry Brad as a child I was told I was funny, sometimes I try and fail).

The same applies for selection of beef, dairy, poultry, horse racing, etc. Nature looks for survival not great production, though that may be a byproduct from time to time.

As for human athletic performance i am not aware of a great successful breeding program for a particular event, or it's success or failure to produce a line of winners. The Terry Bradshaw/Billi Jo Starbuck thing didn't work out but i wouldn't want to have seen a lil Terry on skates anyway.

As for timing devices, the advent of better devices over 50 years can give no indication of progress or lack thereof for a time period going back hundreds of years.

Surely there may be a feral pigeon out there that could have been the great one, given the right circumstance. Maybe Barack will start a program so that ALLl pigeons will get a fair chance in life and live up to their great potential(take some seed from those rich smug pigeons). Failing that I dont see anyone being a winner in this war of opinions on whether a feral once unferalled could outperform someone's line of bread super pigeons.

After all this is much about opinions and I hasve given mine. (pbpbpb)

Sorry if I was offensive(not really)
VL

[SmithFamilyLoft]

Originally Posted by learning

The problem with this train of thought is that it really doesn't apply to humans because society takes a very dim view of truely selective breeding in the human animal (Adolph Hitler, case in point). It is very much a random selection process in who we choose to reproduce with, not based on any attempts to focus on any one particular trait. This is why the physical gains that have been made by humans can almost exclusively attributed to training, nutrition, health, etc. and not to any significant genetic impact.

Mother nature loves chaos. It is through this chaos the hybrid vigor that we hear so much about in the breeding game is insurred. However, this method, by deffinition, creates a very slow development of characteristics that are most suited to a particular environment. This creates a sort of wonderful mediocrity ( middle of the road adaptations that allow for success in the local environment) that ensurres the survival of that species.

Selctive breeding speeds up this process and focuses on specific desired traits. May I suggest a wonderful article by Mr. Silvio Mattachione of Canada. I think he addresses many of these issues here.

http://www.silvio-co.com/pigeons/darwin.htm

It is a long article but I think it really hits the nail on the head regarding natural selection vs. selective breeding.

Dan

P.S. For some reason I can't get any of my links to work in my posts. If you can't access the article you may have better luck pasting the address into your web browser and going at it that way. Sorry.

I don't know what is going on with this link: http://www.silvio-co.com/pigeons/darwin.htm

But, after reading the lengthy article, and the 27 or so foot notes, I think from at least my perspective, that it spells out how man's selective breeding over the last two hundred years, has in fact changed many details in the modern day racing pigeon. If this was not true, then many thousands of fanciers are making no impact what so ever in their selection process. And the quality of one's pigeons would make no difference at all.

I am not convinced by the "evidence" offered, that this is the case. In fact my own personal experience indicates that "good" race winners, are often related to other "good" winners, which to me indicates that blood lines do play an important role.

I don't think Brad, that a real elaborate test is necessary. Simply collect some wild feral pigeons at 30 days of age, and enter them into some race events. Then of course, you should define what exactly a "Feral" is, since the dictionary definition, may not work. To be fair, no racing pigeon should appear anywhere in the bird's back ground. As one could then debate that even a great grandson or daughter to a racing pigeon is not a true "Feral" breed.

The fact that we are having such a "discussion" explains to me, why the typical fancier does not progress in their breeding program. To me, this appears to be the most basic genetics 101.

[LostPinesLoft]

Dan,
Thanks for posting that link, a tremendous article

VL

[SmithFamilyLoft]

Originally Posted by SmithFamilyLoft

I don't know what is going on with this link: http://www.silvio-co.com/pigeons/darwin.htm


The fact that we are having such a "discussion" explains to me, why the typical fancier does not progress in their breeding program. To me, this appears to be the most basic genetics 101.

I want to take this back.....

No, I think Brad did raise a very valid point, and I should give him credit for that, even if he managed to push a few of my buttons...

What exactly is a "Racing Pigeon" ? If there was a good solid description, so that we could compare some apples to apples, and pears to pears kind of things. If we have a good solid foundation of what the "Standard" is, then we could indeed have an interesting and perhaps academic discussion. I'm sorry I took his orginal post, so personally.

[jojo67]

I agree with brad on this, not that i am an expert , but would like to add he view that a good precentage of the feral flocks is lossed racing pigeons, a lot of them bred from fanciers so called champs, for some reason or another can't get home, so who then is can say if you took birds from the feral flocks bred them over a number of years to get that bird that would also become a champion racer,
I think as brad says if the birds had the same treatment as the ones in or lofts over a number of years we would have as good of birds to race,

[LostPinesLoft]

JoJo,
I kindly disagree, I am not sure what a "good percentage" is but from what limited experience I have, I have seen very few banded pigeons(stated as an estimated percentage) in the wild flocks, I would assume the outstanding awols would have been banded.

As to the second point, if you interject care and breeding over a "few years", unless you can assure you have had no influence over mate selection, then you would no longer be housing a feral flock but rather a domesticated one.

It seems for your premise to be correct, simply stated. Cocks and hens natural selection method is every bit as good as the human controlled selection process using breeding records, timing records, general health & behaviour records, and judgment to apply years of experience in guiding the process.

I choose to believe the fanciers who have guided their flock, and have excelled in the contests, have done so because the human decisions have improved the strain specifically for traits of speed and endurance above that of the somewhat random method nature allows for.

Opinions are what it's about,

kindly
VL

[re lee]

Looking back into the development of the racing pigeon. It was a cross and in some areas a cross from wild pigeons that had demonstrated a good sence of need. BUT WITH THAT SAID> Why reinvent the wheel. We now have known famlies of race bred pigeons. ,many diferent family strains. The only thing left is to move forward. By moving forward is to maintain quality, strive to improve quality. Race pigeons today compared to 50 years ago. You notice a different body make up in several family lines. BUT also rtemember MOst the top birds trace back the whole distance of cultivation. 50, 100 150 and further. in years. Just as todays birds will not if the sport is a live well in a 100 years compete as the birds in the future I suspect them to to have improved. First OLDER line birds may have flown as fast. but lacked endurance so took a short break flew some more or just glided on the wing. Who knows for sure We have to look back on recorded race speeds. Then In most of europe It was after the war ww2 That birds became rebuilt because of total lose in the war. So we go back 60 years per say. NOW speeds from the past 60 years I see little difference BUT the birds in 1945 and toady Well todays birds Agin came from those lines BUT selection brought them forward. JUST as show birds fifty years ago could not even come close to competing with most any bird the breed class in todays shows. Some show bird breeds even a dozen years back could not either. Desire heart and homing ability in a race bird brings it home fast and through hard weather. A wild pigeon sure I have been told haow they came home 150 miles away. They can be cultivated. And perhaps one day make great race birds. BUT agin That has been done why waste a life time breeding up to get some where you can get today. Then spend that life striving to breed even better. MAN has done much work on the many differrent breed as it is. From the original rock dove. feral pigeon.. With those improvements is being worked every day. Some takes many years.A model T is not todays automobile. BUT its part of the history. The feral is part but its the past. We see it every day. Still a strong pigeon. Lets leave it free for the world to see. And keep going forward.

[ohiogsp]

I would like to see a experiment were someone puts feral squekers in their loft and see how long they make it with their yb team. I don't think they would make it far. I also don't think they would be fast enough to stay in the lead pack coming from a race. I would be willing to bet that your feral pigeons would not home from more than 100 miles. I have had ferals that I flew from my loft before and you could not take them far.

[kalapati]

this link may shed some light in this topic:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_pigeon


Domestic Pigeon
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
(Redirected from Domestic pigeon)
Jump to: navigation, search
Domestic Rock Pigeon


Red Sheffield domestic homing pigeon
Conservation status
Domesticated
Scientific classification
Kingdom: Animalia

Phylum: Chordata

Class: Aves

Order: Columbiformes

Family: Columbidae

Genus: Columba

Species: C. livia

The domestic pigeon (Columba livia f. domestica) was derived from the Rock Pigeon. The Rock pigeon is the world's oldest domesticated bird. Mesopotamian cuneiform tablets mention the domestication of pigeons more than 5,000 years ago, as do Egyptian hieroglyphics.[2] Research suggests that domestication of pigeons was as early as ten thousand years ago.[2] People who keep domestic pigeons are generally called pigeon fanciers.[3] Domestic pigeons can often be distinguished from feral pigeons because they usually have a metal or plastic band around one (sometimes both) legs, which shows by a number on it, that they are registered to an owner.[4]

Pigeons have made contributions of considerable importance to humanity, especially in times of war.[3] In war the homing ability of pigeons has been put to use by making them messengers. So-called war pigeons have carried many vital messages and some have been decorated for their services. Medals such as the Croix de guerre, awarded to Cher Ami, and the Dickin Medal awarded to the pigeons G.I. Joe and Paddy, amongst 32 others, have been awarded to pigeons for their gallant and brave services in saving human lives. Despite this, many people consider pigeons to be pests. Domestic pigeons are sometimes called "thoroughbreds of the air," while feral pigeons are sometimes called "rats with wings."[5]

Homing pigeons
Main articles: Homing pigeon and Racing Homer

Homing pigeonTrained domestic pigeons are able to return to the home loft if released at a location that they have never visited before and that may be up to 1000 km away. A special breed, called homing pigeons has been developed through selective breeding to carry messages and members of this variety of pigeon are still being used in the sport of pigeon racing and the white release dove ceremony at weddings and funerals.

Pigeons' extraordinary navigation abilities have been attributed to the theory that they are able to sense the Earth's magnetic field with tiny magnetic tissues in their head (magnetoception). This is all the more surprising as they are not a migratory species, which is a fact used by some ornithologists to dispute the "compass pigeon" theory.


Other purposes of pigeon breeding

For food
Main article: Squab (food)

Pigeons are also bred for meat, generally called squab and harvested from young birds. Pigeons grow to a very large size in the nest before they are fledged and able to fly, and in this stage of their development (when they are called squabs) they are prized as food. For commercial meat production a breed of large white pigeon, named "King pigeon," has been developed by selective breeding. Breeds of Pigeons developed for their meat are collectively known as Utility Pigeons.

[edit] Exhibition breeds
Main article: Fancy pigeon
Pigeon fanciers developed many exotic forms of pigeon. These are generally classed as Fancy pigeons. The Fanciers compete against each other at exhibitions or shows and the different forms or breeds are judged to a standard to decide who has the best bird. Among those breeds are the English Carriers, a variety of pigeon with wattles and a unique, almost vertical, stance (pictures). There are many ornamental breeds of pigeons, including the "Duchess" breed, which has as a prominent characteristic feet that are completely covered by a sort of fan of feathers. The Fantails are also very ornamental with their fan-shaped tail feathers.


Flying/Sporting

Main article: Flying/Sporting Pigeons
Pigeons are also kept by enthusiasts for the enjoyment of Flying/Sporting competitions. Breeds such as Tipplers are flown in endurance contests by their owners.

Experimentation

Domestic pigeons are also commonly used in laboratory experiments in biology, medicine and cognitive science.

Cognitive science

They have been trained to distinguish between cubist and impressionist paintings, for instance. In another project, pigeons were shown to be more effective than humans in spotting shipwreck victims at sea. Research in pigeons is widespread, encompassing shape and texture perception, exemplar and prototype memory, category-based and associative concepts, and many more unlisted here (see Pigeon intelligence and discrimination abilities of pigeons).


kalapati
San Diego
http://loftdekalapati.mypets.ws:81/Jview.htm

[hillfamilyloft]

I think their are two genetic traits we need to look at here. One being the speed a pigeon can obtain, the other homing ability. Races, thus average speed, can be won from one or both of these traits. Many sub traits lead to these main ideas. Wing, eye, muscle, tail, brain etc. I would hope the birds in my loft have been selected for superior abilities over those of ferals. Otherwise we would not be going to Ganus for birds, but the local bridge.

Dan is right on with his mediocrity theory of genetics. My mom's uncles are cattle raisers and the genetics and selection that go into cattle definitely develop a superior being. Mr. Sanders would not have gotten rich in the chicken business if not for the development of a better chicken. Agriculture is another front where selection and genetic engineering have developed disease tolerant plants and higher yields.

I do think a guy could go to the local bridges in numerous towns and catch some ferals and over hundreds of years develop a bird that could compete with top racing birds. My thoughts are that you would not catch the birds at random, but search for those that have the best conformation, the ones that might have a band, and the ones that are healthy. Here selection has already started.

I think one reason we go to the guys that win to get our birds is because they are ahead of the selection game. Ace is case in point. He obtained birds from fanciers that win. In tern he is winning. My bet is if he started with ferals, he would have lost his race team by now.

Warren obtained Ludo birds, I Vic Miller birds and so on. Why because they win. There are many avenues you can take to establish a fine group of birds that win. Catching birds under the bridge in my opinion is not one of them.

Can a feral reach speed of a quality race birds? I would say yes. Can it win the combine? My bet is no. There is more in winning races than the speed of the bird.

Randy