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Pigeonfriends Pigeonfriends is offline
Posted 29th August 2012, 06:30 PM
Join Date: Jan 2012
Country: Canada
Posts: 699

Van Loon pigeons?


are they really as good as people say they are??

http://www.pipa.be/en/newsandarticle...mances-pigeon-

Nearly everybody knows the name Louis Van Loon… simply because the man has raced extremely well in the middle distance and the extreme middle distance races in Belgium for years. Superior pigeon game for which he was ‘shown the door’ in several clubs… was simply excluded from the racing environment… for being too ‘strong’, too ‘dominant’… too ‘superior’ for the competitors. Provincial and national victories brought the Van Loon colony international interest.


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realtalk72 realtalk72 is offline
Posted 29th August 2012, 08:45 PM
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: central valley
Posts: 138
I breed vanloons crossed with hubben and they are real good after the 200 mile mark all the way to 500 miles that i have tested them ...my vanloon blood is based on the 083 vanloon super 73 blood..good stuff
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SmithFamilyLoft SmithFamilyLoft is offline
Posted 29th August 2012, 10:24 PM
Join Date: Nov 2004
Country: United States
Posts: 5,367
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pigeonfriends View Post
are they really as good as people say they are??

http://www.pipa.be/en/newsandarticle...mances-pigeon-

Nearly everybody knows the name Louis Van Loon… simply because the man has raced extremely well in the middle distance and the extreme middle distance races in Belgium for years. Superior pigeon game for which he was ‘shown the door’ in several clubs… was simply excluded from the racing environment… for being too ‘strong’, too ‘dominant’… too ‘superior’ for the competitors. Provincial and national victories brought the Van Loon colony international interest.
My guess is yes. I am sure that fifty years after his passing, there will be fanciers who will claim that they own "Pure" Van Loon's.....maybe a hundred years from now. Why would people do that, unless some portion of the pigeon fancy believes he is a great fancier ?
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Josepe Josepe is offline
Posted 31st August 2012, 05:16 PM
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Country: United States
Location: W.Md.
Age: 64
Posts: 1,415
One of my breeders ( hen) goes back to Super 73.
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Paragon Loft Paragon Loft is offline
Posted 31st August 2012, 05:40 PM
Join Date: Jun 2009
Country: United States
Location: florida
Posts: 249
is like everything else,even the good ones breed bad ones but yes they ate a good old strain,good luck.
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FrequentFlierMiles FrequentFlierMiles is offline
Posted 3rd September 2012, 08:10 PM
Join Date: May 2012
Country: Jersey
Location: Backyard of New Jersey
Posts: 84
Warren I still believe people can say there pigeons are van loon strain if they come from van loon blood lines from mother to grandfather to great... you get where I'm going now if people start criss crossing different bloodlines than they can give that new young born there own name of strain but in the pedigree you will always see where they came from.. I'm sure your grandchildren will follow have smith in their last name well that is like saying where they came from kind of same thing at least by my standards everybody has different opinions but I get a feeling you get upset or just want others to thi k like you do in that subject I see a positive point of view in which you want everybody to call any pigeon born in their loft to take the strain the owner feels like she or he should call it in a way so they take credit for the bloodline since it was born in there own loft but many still feel like giving credit to the ancestors bloodline whatever it may be Janssen, Van Loon.... but if you want everybody to take credit and give there birds a strain than later how will people be Ble to know oh this bird is long distance, short distance, middle distance? Bc that I have seen each strain is good or know to be good at a certain distAnce so over the years people will buy that bird and have to know how to categorize it I'm sure it would be harder to distinguish which one is good at what category of distance. I guess I am different where I respect my ancestors and I feel like I am still part of them I have a connection with my grandfather and great grandfather the genes are passed down.

But I do agree that once somebody starts to breed from different strains they can call the offspring their own strain bc they will have the credit for what ever positive or negative result that bird will get.

But all this comes more important for business of selling racing pigeons and it is important for the buyer to know what he is getting!

A Racing Pigeon is just A Racing Pigeon right warren than let me know how do people categorize what distance they are good for I thought any racing pigeon is able to fly from far distances let's say 600 miles plus, are they all capable of doing it I am pretty sure they are so how does one than categorize them into short, middle, and long distance by blood strain?
Look at these strains:
Sion:
Janssen:
Van Loon:
Ludo:
KLeins:
Raw Sablons:

All these strains just a couple I have heard of Are known for the distances they are good at and on went down in history for being good at that specific distance.

Now looks at these strains:
Koopman:
Ludo:
Jos Thone:
SmithFamilyloft:
many more I can mention but you know that this is because of these people becoming well known in racing pigeon or in the sell of racin pigeons that have given good results all these I have seen people use there name as the strain but more for its name bc each one have specific birds from different strains that we all know as Janssen, Sion, ect...
it's starting to become like automobiles they all have an engine you got different brands with different cars at different horsepower so what's te difference in each one? if you got a car from one brand and the another one with the same HP what makes them different is it the type of races they have won that gives people a better perspective to choosing one from another does one company have better engineers than the other that makes people feel this is the one I want?

I still feel like if I was to buy a racing pigeon from you for example and my friend asks me what strain is that pigeon I would respond this racing pigeon comes from Smith Family Loft but it's blood line comes from the Ludo Family which is good for middle distance now than again I would want to know the pedigree of the bird once I would purchase it bc one has to know where this bird comes down from what line. Im getting to a point where one should always know where they came from I'm sure even though our ancestors could have been somebody great or not one always feels honored to know where they came from and take great pride no matter what. Okay maybe if it's a bad past of family somebody won't share it with other people as much but still care about it just like racing pigeons people admire that a specific pigeon comes from this strain or that one bc it came from a great line of success

I'm just trying to figure Warren Smith out on this kind of subject it is not the first time I see Warren going about that the strain is lost after what how many years____?
Like okay the birds are not children direct to direct van loon bird or Janssen but I am sure if it's grandpareNts or greatgrandparts are I would still give credit to the strain being from whatever those great strain names I have mentioned.

This is something I am just curious to know Warren so if you can just give me an answer to is it your opinion or is it somethig you want everybody to follow bc I read it quit often.
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FrequentFlierMiles FrequentFlierMiles is offline
Posted 3rd September 2012, 08:25 PM
Join Date: May 2012
Country: Jersey
Location: Backyard of New Jersey
Posts: 84
As to Van Loons I have a flyer I know who his bloodline comes from van loon strain has been the best he has and in the club he is one of the strongest competitors around.
I have heard these birds being good at 500 to 600 miles max.
He tries not to sell them to his competitors bc it would be like him goin against himself bc the way he has his birds set up in the loft and the way your treat the birds being clean and medicated for vitamins and sickness one can only make champions this is what makes him good and different from the rest that is what makes people stand out. This he has explained to me now he calls it his bloodline bc its his birds but when I ask him what strain he still answeres me that it is van loon now if you want to know how close it is to it being direct to van loon himself I would have to get back to you tommorow or the day after.

Many people win races right well what I have done is compare each person to one another what gives them the chance to win.
There coop design to there coop maintainance how clean they keep it and than I would ask them so what strain are your birds well like that I know what strain doe good for my area as I am a growing pigeon flyier I try to learn to see whats good but also see what makes these flyers have good flying birds and that my friend is the secret that every pigeon flyer does not shair if he knows he is going to compete with you this goes down to feed mixture to schedual of different vitamins and medication usage. This is all part of the strategy that one has to have a good season. I got birds of different strains I bought I got from friends for free I will see what works best for me and by next year I will see what I should build my loft on bc if you get different strains and house them all in the same conditions than they should all fly with same health or need to come back home well once you train them you will start to see which ones come home first from the different tosses at different distances.
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FrequentFlierMiles FrequentFlierMiles is offline
Posted 3rd September 2012, 08:30 PM
Join Date: May 2012
Country: Jersey
Location: Backyard of New Jersey
Posts: 84
I also heard some strains don't suite a specific region to fly such as some strains are better in desserts some in cities some with winds, rain, i dont know how true that is bc i believe that each strain will be able to suite there area with practice but than again im just a beginer and what i have heard is from people that are experienced fanciers so one should go with what others in there area say has worked well for them the rest is up to the fancier to whT environment his BIRD is kept in good conditions or bad is the BIRD satisfied with them to be eager to fly back home as fast As possible
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SmithFamilyLoft SmithFamilyLoft is offline
Posted 3rd September 2012, 11:56 PM
Join Date: Nov 2004
Country: United States
Posts: 5,367
Quote:
Originally Posted by FrequentFlierMiles View Post
Warren I still believe people can say there pigeons are van loon strain if they come from van loon blood lines from mother to grandfather to great... you get where I'm going now if people start criss crossing different bloodlines than they can give that new young born there own name of strain but in the pedigree you will always see where they came from.. I'm sure your grandchildren will follow have smith in their last name well that is like saying where they came from kind of same thing at least by my standards everybody has different opinions but I get a feeling you get upset or just want others to thi k like you do in that subject I see a positive point of view in which you want everybody to call any pigeon born in their loft to take the strain the owner feels like she or he should call it in a way so they take credit for the bloodline since it was born in there own loft but many still feel like giving credit to the ancestors bloodline whatever it may be Janssen, Van Loon.... but if you want everybody to take credit and give there birds a strain than later how will people be Ble to know oh this bird is long distance, short distance, middle distance? Bc that I have seen each strain is good or know to be good at a certain distAnce so over the years people will buy that bird and have to know how to categorize it I'm sure it would be harder to distinguish which one is good at what category of distance. I guess I am different where I respect my ancestors and I feel like I am still part of them I have a connection with my grandfather and great grandfather the genes are passed down.

But I do agree that once somebody starts to breed from different strains they can call the offspring their own strain bc they will have the credit for what ever positive or negative result that bird will get.

But all this comes more important for business of selling racing pigeons and it is important for the buyer to know what he is getting!

A Racing Pigeon is just A Racing Pigeon right warren than let me know how do people categorize what distance they are good for I thought any racing pigeon is able to fly from far distances let's say 600 miles plus, are they all capable of doing it I am pretty sure they are so how does one than categorize them into short, middle, and long distance by blood strain?
Look at these strains:
Sion:
Janssen:
Van Loon:
Ludo:
KLeins:
Raw Sablons:

All these strains just a couple I have heard of Are known for the distances they are good at and on went down in history for being good at that specific distance.

Now looks at these strains:
Koopman:
Ludo:
Jos Thone:
SmithFamilyloft:
many more I can mention but you know that this is because of these people becoming well known in racing pigeon or in the sell of racin pigeons that have given good results all these I have seen people use there name as the strain but more for its name bc each one have specific birds from different strains that we all know as Janssen, Sion, ect...
it's starting to become like automobiles they all have an engine you got different brands with different cars at different horsepower so what's te difference in each one? if you got a car from one brand and the another one with the same HP what makes them different is it the type of races they have won that gives people a better perspective to choosing one from another does one company have better engineers than the other that makes people feel this is the one I want?

I still feel like if I was to buy a racing pigeon from you for example and my friend asks me what strain is that pigeon I would respond this racing pigeon comes from Smith Family Loft but it's blood line comes from the Ludo Family which is good for middle distance now than again I would want to know the pedigree of the bird once I would purchase it bc one has to know where this bird comes down from what line. Im getting to a point where one should always know where they came from I'm sure even though our ancestors could have been somebody great or not one always feels honored to know where they came from and take great pride no matter what. Okay maybe if it's a bad past of family somebody won't share it with other people as much but still care about it just like racing pigeons people admire that a specific pigeon comes from this strain or that one bc it came from a great line of success

I'm just trying to figure Warren Smith out on this kind of subject it is not the first time I see Warren going about that the strain is lost after what how many years____?
Like okay the birds are not children direct to direct van loon bird or Janssen but I am sure if it's grandpareNts or greatgrandparts are I would still give credit to the strain being from whatever those great strain names I have mentioned.

This is something I am just curious to know Warren so if you can just give me an answer to is it your opinion or is it somethig you want everybody to follow bc I read it quit often.
I don't really know exactly how I feel about this. You say you feel that the great fancier, maybe several generations back ? Ten generations back ? Twenty ? should be given the "credit".

I know of, and have seen birds, which were called "XYZ" where as I am quite sure the founder of the strain, would not recognize the bird as anything he would want his name associated with. On the other hand, if the birds are so great, that every race they are flown in they win, why that long lost fancier who we want to give credit to, once the birds actually produce like they were in the hands of a great fancier, why no attention is paid to the foundations, it is what the current fancier is able to do with the birds. If all he is able to do, is breed generation after generation of "bred for stock", never once having won any races, I can see why he would always wish to refer back to some great fancier of fifty or even a hundred years ago.

But let me see these same birds propel their owner to the tops of the race sheets in National events, and in such situations, the birds never retain the name of some fancier long in the past, no...these birds will now bear the name of their new racing legend. And his name they will bear, til once again they are acquired by strong hands.

I guess my little pet peeve is that many fancier's pigeons are labeled as a "strain", when they may be no such thing. To one who studies genetics, such terms have meanings. As the term is generally applied by your average pigeon fancier, it can mean a number of different things depending on who one might be talking with.

But, I digress.....once the selection process is taken out of the hands of the great master, and put into a line of hands, most if not all, who will select in a much different manner then the original. Then changes occur very quickly, and in just a generation or two, you may have very typical average pigeons which may have few characteristics of the original's.

So, if "XYZ" is a great flier, and he sells some pigeons. I would not assume that they are "XYZ" strain. He may have any number of genetic lines. Among this colony of pigeons, there may be individuals that will be better at different distances. Maybe they are better at certain distances, and maybe there is a lot of variance within the colony. Maybe the colony is not uniform, making it difficult to determine what the standard is.

I confess, I have taken years to learn the Ludo strain, but over time, I don't know where my personal preferences or biases have impacted the selection process. At what point, does my creations become my own ? For better or for worse, when does the fancier stand up and accept responsibility for what he has helped create ?

It is my contention that if one takes members of an inbred community and then disperses them around the world into the hands of perhaps hundreds or thousands of fanciers over the years. The "strain" is going to change a hundred different ways in a hundred different places. We have seen this on islands where a bird specie developed into totally different birds when the colonies became isolated on different islands and formed separate breeding colonies.

Even though these birds were the same "pure" breed of birds, once they were subjected to different selective pressures, they began to change. I am only saying that the same thing has and will occur in racing pigeons and any other breed of pigeon.

I could give pick a bunch of people from PT to participate in an experiment. They would each be given three pairs of "pure" Smiths. Now for the next 20 years, they continue to "line Breed" these birds and keep them "pure".

They may have all been given very uniform "cookie cutter" breeding pairs, but after 20 years, there would be major differences in what the birds looked like from among all those in the experiment, as well as their performances. Twenty generations later they could all point to their "pure bred" Smith's, but I am betting that some wouldn't be anything I would like. The reason is simple, you have a different artist using a different paintbrush.

Last edited by SmithFamilyLoft; 4th September 2012 at 05:20 AM. Reason: spelling
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LA Lofts LA Lofts is offline
Posted 4th September 2012, 05:17 AM
Join Date: Aug 2012
Country: Australia
Posts: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pigeonfriends View Post
are they really as good as people say they are??

http://www.pipa.be/en/newsandarticle...mances-pigeon-

Nearly everybody knows the name Louis Van Loon… simply because the man has raced extremely well in the middle distance and the extreme middle distance races in Belgium for years. Superior pigeon game for which he was ‘shown the door’ in several clubs… was simply excluded from the racing environment… for being too ‘strong’, too ‘dominant’… too ‘superior’ for the competitors. Provincial and national victories brought the Van Loon colony international interest.
@Pigeonfriends Personally I think that they need to be crossed with another bloodline to stand up to today's newer bloodlines. I personally own a couple as stock birds, and have crossed them with Hanseens and Silver Shadows which resulted in better quality racing birds.
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ejb3810 ejb3810 is offline
Posted 4th September 2012, 06:06 AM
Join Date: May 2012
Country: United States
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 269
THE REALITY! Some individuals are superior livestock breeders and most are not. As these named strains become further removed from the original superior developer of them, the general racing quality becomes diluted. I believe that the reason the DeRauw-Sablon birds, the Vandenabele birds, and other currently hot so called strains seem to some to be superior is that they have not been as diluted to this point by the average fancier. Some fanciers continue to do well when seemingly breeding and flying a strain of bird that has long since fallen out of popularity with those looking for the next great wonder strain. Could it be that those people are better in the art of breeding and animal husbandry?
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Pigeonfriends Pigeonfriends is offline
Posted 4th September 2012, 06:11 AM
Join Date: Jan 2012
Country: Canada
Posts: 699
Quote:
Originally Posted by ejb3810 View Post
THE REALITY! Some individuals are superior livestock breeders and most are not. As these named strains become further removed from the original superior developer of them, the general racing quality becomes diluted. I believe that the reason the DeRauw-Sablon birds, the Vandenabele birds, and other currently hot so called strains seem to some to be superior is that they have not been as diluted to this point by the average fancier. Some fanciers continue to do well when seemingly breeding and flying a strain of bird that has long since fallen out of popularity with those looking for the next great wonder strain. Could it be that those people are better in the art of breeding and animal husbandry?
but isn't majority of breeding just luck though?
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ejb3810 ejb3810 is offline
Posted 4th September 2012, 07:53 AM
Join Date: May 2012
Country: United States
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 269
Pigeonfriends, for most perhaps breeding is determined by luck. There are however, I believe, a select number of people that are able to take it to the next level, and for them luck is a small factor in it.
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pigeonvet pigeonvet is offline
Posted 4th September 2012, 08:08 AM
Join Date: Aug 2012
Country: United Kingdom
Location: uk and Ireland
Posts: 2

hi everyone just joined the site


Quote:
Originally Posted by Pigeonfriends View Post
are they really as good as people say they are??

http://www.pipa.be/en/newsandarticle...mances-pigeon-

Nearly everybody knows the name Louis Van Loon… simply because the man has raced extremely well in the middle distance and the extreme middle distance races in Belgium for years. Superior pigeon game for which he was ‘shown the door’ in several clubs… was simply excluded from the racing environment… for being too ‘strong’, too ‘dominant’… too ‘superior’ for the competitors. Provincial and national victories brought the Van Loon colony international interest.
hi everyone i have just joined the site
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ejb3810 ejb3810 is offline
Posted 4th September 2012, 09:45 AM
Join Date: May 2012
Country: United States
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 269
Welcome to the site pigeonvet.
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