What's a reasonable price?

[Kal-El]

On a pigeon from a performance background? Most of the pigeons I see on the auctions are listed between $100-$300. Is that considered decent market value for birds between one and ten years old?

Also, what does it say when a bird that is only three or four years old is posted? Does that lend to the notion the bird was not productive? It would seem to add to that notion when you see older birds (especially cocks) are sold and fetch a considerable amount of money. For example, a friend of mine was bidding on a direct son of Super Secret of Van Loon fame about a year ago. Even though that bird was around eight years old, the ending amount was around $850.

Young birds that are bred and sold for the $100 amount, are they tagged low in monetary value because they're "unproven?" Another friend of mine recently told me that he never buys birds that are three to four years or older because he feels they are worthless. That's why the owners wanted to get rid of them. He says he only buys late hatches off good stuff because the late hatches are unproven.

Any thoughts?

[ThePoultryFarm]

Unproven birds that sell high are bought because of their pedigree, or proven family history. It does not necessarily mean the bird will be a winner, just means it has a good shot

Sometimes people will get a bird like as described above, try it out, and it will suck. They want to re coop some of the costs, so they try and post this 4 year old bird for the original cost or more.

You cannot classify older birds as worthless just because they are for sale. They might just have not worked out for that particular person. Also, older birds that did do well do often come up for sale, but the price reflects such.

[ThePoultryFarm]

Also, as you breed and grow and raise birds, each year you (should) outgrow some of your previous birds. This doesn't make those birds bad, it just means that you have produced better ones now.
Now, to a young beginner, those birds that are no good for you might just be better than any bird in his/her loft. Therfore, it would be a great addition for them. You dont need it, they do.

I'm not sure if I explained that clearly? :P Perhaps the others can chime in on this one too!

[Matt Bell]

This is how I see it. If you are looking to buy a 'Prepotent' bird the only real chance you have is to buy a young, unproven bird, because then the seller doesn't know what it will do and neither do you. (Unless of course you have several thousands of dollars to buy a proven 'Prepotent' bird, which many of us do not, myself included.) As PoultryFarm was saying just because a 3-4 year old bird is up for sale does not mean that the bird is bad. It most likely means it did not produce anything for the previous owner, or that the previous owner has went and spent a nice sum of money on birds which he feels are better. Now, that being said, maybe the bird up for sale just didn't fit the previous fanciers handling methods, maybe he didn't have it paired properly, or maybe it was the wrong type of course for this bird (if you subscribe to the horses for courses idea).

Now, reading over this I am not sure I answered the question or helped, maybe I just muddied the waters a bit more...

[Kal-El]

Matt, it's always good fodder. Don't feel bad if there needs to be an answer or explanation. Just want to read everyone else's viewpoints on the topic.

[hillfamilyloft]

Sometimes I think their is not enough information to make a quick judgement on a bird that is say 4 years old. Case in point. I gave one of my best youngsters to arguably our worst flier in ABQ. The bird was always his first bird in, all 8 races, but to the back of the pack. I am sure the bird never bred a good bird according to the race sheet, but neither did any of the rest of his birds. Birds many times reflect the handler. knowing the bird and what he did under adverse conditions and his bloodline, I would not hesitate in stocking him.
As for a four year old vs a late hatch youngster out of good paper. I would take the youngster. Reasons, younger more offspring potential, can train it and test it, and you might be right the four year old may be no good.
Both my best breeders this year were 05 birds. They have bred well before, but were still five years old.
Next point. is my mentor has 150 birds. He breeds from about 30. Many of his 4 or 5 year old cock have never been tested. Does this mean they are bad. Not at all. They just have not been tested yet. Would I buy one. Knowing the stock, yes.

[Pigeon0446]

Originally Posted by hillfamilyloft

Sometimes I think their is not enough information to make a quick judgement on a bird that is say 4 years old. Case in point. I gave one of my best youngsters to arguably our worst flier in ABQ. The bird was always his first bird in, all 8 races, but to the back of the pack. I am sure the bird never bred a good bird according to the race sheet, but neither did any of the rest of his birds. Birds many times reflect the handler. knowing the bird and what he did under adverse conditions and his bloodline, I would not hesitate in stocking him.
As for a four year old vs a late hatch youngster out of good paper. I would take the youngster. Reasons, younger more offspring potential, can train it and test it, and you might be right the four year old may be no good.
Both my best breeders this year were 05 birds. They have bred well before, but were still five years old.
Next point. is my mentor has 150 birds. He breeds from about 30. Many of his 4 or 5 year old cock have never been tested. Does this mean they are bad. Not at all. They just have not been tested yet. Would I buy one. Knowing the stock, yes.

When my club has the auction for the top birds in our Great South Bay Classic what I look for are birds that did good for the less skillfull handlers. I'm figuring if the bird did good for a guy who really isn't treating the birds the way the need to be treated to compete week in a week out and one of these birds did good multiple times for them I want that bird since I'm thinking with my skills that bird could've been somthing really special. And their babies can be somthing special as well. And it's worked out for me the past few years I've bought 4 birds from that auction and 3 have raised me diploma winners and the other was only bought in November so I'll see how his babies turn out when young bird season comes.

[RodSD]

Pigeon's optimum health seems to be the first 3 years of its life so it stands to reason that is the best time to breed them. After that their health may not be that good or in optimum. You may wish to ponder also that wild pigeons seem to have an average lifetime of 5 years in the wild. Also back in time when people raise utility pigeons for meat they have observed that the maximum is around 6 years old. After that their production goes down. My own conclusion is that it may have something to do with health issues.

[re lee]

Originally Posted by RodSD

Pigeon's optimum health seems to be the first 3 years of its life so it stands to reason that is the best time to breed them. After that their health may not be that good or in optimum. You may wish to ponder also that wild pigeons seem to have an average lifetime of 5 years in the wild. Also back in time when people raise utility pigeons for meat they have observed that the maximum is around 6 years old. After that their production goes down. My own conclusion is that it may have something to do with health issues.

Some birds though reach full mature age at 3. Depends on family line. And a 3 year old is prime for old bird racing. It is in its prime. Utily bred birds were pushed for squabs So 6 years woud be a replacment time. In the wild pigeons have more a threat. hawks weather/shelter. and health bad food bad water. So 3 to 5 years is a harder life. In the loft they live much longer. Not over bred they can breed for several years. Some are not evn put in the breeding loft until 3 to 5 years old.. If a bird has a few years on it and comes from a good loft It can be a help. Race record spaeks for race birds breeding record speaks for buying breeders. Has the breeding Good clock birds ect. . bird bred winners bred Highly inbred birds well expect them not to fertile as long say 4 to 6 years. of age. Far as cost. like any thing else what a person pays is the cost. When people are say so demanding they will pay super bucks They drive prices up. A decent bird should still bill a thousand and less. Many a good bird can be bought for 100 to 300 dollars. But people with money sure do pay with that money. The old saying the more you make the more you spend.

[Kal-El]

Originally Posted by klondike goldie

I think when someone has an older bird for sale, they aren't selling it because it produced so many winners, usually they are selling it because it didn't produce any winners. Who would sell a bird that produced winners? nobody, but they might sell youngsters off of it. How many times have you heard of big name pigeon guys selling youngsters, then when the youngster turns out to be a champion flyer or proven breeder they try to buy it back for ten times what they sold it for. If they had known it would turn out that good they would have never sold it. I think it's best to get young unproven birds off of birds with lots of winners in their background.

Sounds like the current ADL auction.

[re lee]

Originally Posted by klondike goldie

I think when someone has an older bird for sale, they aren't selling it because it produced so many winners, usually they are selling it because it didn't produce any winners. Who would sell a bird that produced winners? nobody, but they might sell youngsters off of it. How many times have you heard of big name pigeon guys selling youngsters, then when the youngster turns out to be a champion flyer or proven breeder they try to buy it back for ten times what they sold it for. If they had known it would turn out that good they would have never sold it. I think it's best to get young unproven birds off of birds with lots of winners in their background.

If a person does not sell off certion birds THOSE that have produced winners But they have bred and produced better then that person does not stay with a solid program and fall down the charts. How else can one explain how those certion birds have been bought. because the owner did Now have better and equal to. Its best to remove even your past best to make way for the future. With exception of the REAL prpotent key bird Which is very rare in many a loft..

[g0ldenb0y55]

I agree with your friend about buying unproven youngsters versus a 3-4 year old that's up for sale. At 3-4 years old the bird is at it's prime and if it's up for sale then it probably wasn't good enough to keep in the breeding loft.

[Kal-El]

Originally Posted by g0ldenb0y55

I agree with your friend about buying unproven youngsters versus a 3-4 year old that's up for sale. At 3-4 years old the bird is at it's prime and if it's up for sale then it probably wasn't good enough to keep in the breeding loft.

I was thinking that too when he mentioned it. When I see a bird on the auction that is three to five years old, I immediately think that it couldn't earn it's feed and is up for sale.

[Matt Bell]

However, there is a 3 year old cock bird on iPigeon right now that I would not hesitate in placing a bid on if I was looking to buy birds. Looks nice, comes from a good loft, just my type of pigeon.

[g0ldenb0y55]

Originally Posted by Kal-El

I was thinking that too when he mentioned it. When I see a bird on the auction that is three to five years old, I immediately think that it couldn't earn it's feed and is up for sale.

That's what a cautious buyer does and I think it's a good thing.

Originally Posted by Matt Bell

However, there is a 3 year old cock bird on iPigeon right now that I would not hesitate in placing a bid on if I was looking to buy birds. Looks nice, comes from a good loft, just my type of pigeon.

When you have a certain feeling about a particular bird then you go with the flow! You might get lucky, but that percentage of it being just an average bird is very likely when they're up for sale at that age.