Whey Protein Powder

[Happy]

Any Racing people out there ever use Whey Powder for Racing? It was suggested by some good Racing folks to me to use during the races. The question I have is somewhere on this site I saw that Pigeons were Lactose Intolorant & that Milk products would not digest?? Whey Protein is a slight milk product. Anyone know for a fact that Whey would be bad for them, or experiance using it. It is rich in Amino Acids etc.... Thanks, Happy

[SmithFamilyLoft]

Hello Happy,

I have used it, and have some on hand. I have not used it extensively so I can not speak to it's effectiveness. In small amounts, I think it can be a good supplement. I would NOT use one that is flavored.

You want to be careful that you don't over do a good thing. I have discussed protein %, with experts the world over. The opinion seems to be a percentage below 20%. The debate centers around absorption rates etc. Generally, it appears that the YB's do better on say a 18% as opposed to a 13%. Whatever the real truth is, many lips are sealed, or they just don't know.

[SmithFamilyLoft]

Hey Hap !!

Appears that you were / are ahead of the curve !! You see, we are on the same page !!

[Camrron]

Warren,

I just read your post but didn't get it. I looked at your website to see if that would clear it up for me. You see, like Happy, I had also been told that birds were Lactose-intolerant but I am no longer sure that is true. Especially after our discussion on powdered milk:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showth...=lactobacillus

I would like to know the truth about lactates in birds at this point so was naturally very interested in this last post of yours. What did you mean that Happy was ahead of the curve? Am I missing something? Is there new info?

Thanks, looking forward to hearing back from you.

Cameron

[SmithFamilyLoft]

I don't know what the "Real" answer is...but for me and my birds...a tablespoon in the water has shown no ill effects ! Now, what the real value is, I don't know that either. On the other hand, I personally do not see any ill effects either ! My thinking is, that it has some value.

[lawman]

HI Hap.

I've used both the powdered milk and the whey protein for my birds, My younger brother (who also flys in our Combine) prefers powdered milk, while I prefer the whey protein for my birds. I prefer it for all the resons we have stated in previous articles. However unlike Warran who puts it in the water I prefer to put it on the food. one heaping tablespoon to three cups feed with your preferance of oil for a bonding agent ( I use 10 in 1 oil ) I give then the Whey protein three times a week and twice a week they get brewers yeast.

Have a good race Hap,

Lawman

[lawman]

Hi again,

you'll find most of my previous suggestions for the use of Whey protein, under the heading probiotics. have fun reading.

Lawman

[Camrron]

Thanks Warren and Lawman too,

I put the link to "Probiotics" in my earlier post (above) by the way Lawman so others can read our previous discussion too. Well you can tell that I have been giving the whole lactate problems time to sink in. I would have thought by now that if there was any objections to using powdered milk, whey or Lactobacillus we would certainly have heard about it from someone in the forum but.........

No objections so far. Interesting isn't it. Perhaps what I was told earlier is not valid after all but based on someone elses bad information. My thinking now is that if you are using the stuff and it has not caused harm, indigestion, ill health etc,.....if you are using the stuff and it helps your birds to win races,.....then there is validity to what you are saying.

So never say never. I will also look into the powdered milk as a lactobacillus alternative. Why not eh. And like you mentioned, it is just a fraction of the cost for the same outcome in your experience. I will have to do my own limited trial to see how it goes with my birds as there is no comments to the contrary on the subject. You may have a convert here!

Cameron

[SmithFamilyLoft]

Originally Posted by lawman

HI Hap.

I've used both the powdered milk and the whey protein for my birds, My younger brother (who also flys in our Combine) prefers powdered milk, while I prefer the whey protein for my birds. I prefer it for all the resons we have stated in previous articles. However unlike Warran who puts it in the water I prefer to put it on the food. one heaping tablespoon to three cups feed with your preferance of oil for a bonding agent ( I use 10 in 1 oil ) I give then the Whey protein three times a week and twice a week they get brewers yeast.

Have a good race Hap,

Lawman

Hello Lawman,

Have not posted with you since our lively discussion on "Best of the Best " Hope things are going well with you and your family.

I don't know or remember what your regular feed is, but with your whey protein supplementation, at what amounts did you notice an excess amount of protein in the diet ? I mean, what process occured which indicated to you that a tablespoon three times a week was the ideal amount ?

I have used the whey protein in the past, I have it on hand, and have given some recently. I find, that it is very easy to have a diet too rich in protein. I was thinking that your three times a week with a tablespoon over the feed, might be OK in your situation with what your regular feed is. But if Camrron and others are feeding a protein rich feed in the first place, they may be on course for an excessive amount of protein in the diet, which can have negative effects, as you are aware.

Thus my question on how you arrived at the amounts in your sitation. And what your experience was, and what the signs were, when too much of a good thing was evident ?

[lawman]

Hi Warren,

I started using the whey protein and powdered milk after my local importer stopped shipping in Versa Laga Feed from the Netherlands. Their feed had a probiotic added onto the feed during the drying process, my brother andI got very good results while using their feed. Now unless I wanted to ship in a container of feed myself (I'm not that rich), I had to find another source of feed.

The key to the whole process is balanced feed and I had to find another source for good balanced feed, the store bought stuff is ok but not to my liking. My brother and I, along with other members of our club have the feed specially mixed, (we have to buy it in 1000 pd increments). currently for racing I use a feed that is balanced at 10% protein and 10% carbs. This is the short distance mix. for the longer distances (or if I think its going to be a hard race) I use a mix that increases the carbs and is only slightly higher in protein content.

As for how I came up with the formula that I use for when to give whey protein and when to give brewers yeast, its very simple, It's called trial and error. Now it helps when you have others who are trying similar methods, In my case my younger brother. We talk constantly about how to improve our results and when one of us finds something that seems to work we will both try it in our separate lofts. Then we compare the results against each other and against our previous results. So far I've seen nothing but good results coming from adding the extra whey protein to the feed.

One tid-bit that I'll add is that if you buy the store bought feed (well use 16% race feed for example) they get to 16% by adding in green pea's. a pigeon will only digest approx. 20% (at most) of the pea's, everything else is pooped out. so in actuallity your only getting approx. 3% protein out of your feed. Therefor even at the rates I suggested your not going to overdose your birds on protein. My suggestion for anyone who has to use the regular store bought feed is pull out all the green pea's and supplement the feed with ether whey protein or powdered milk and see what happens. I think you will be amazed at the results

Lawman

[Happy]

Thanks Lawman, Warren & all. I had just heard of this last yr. & My observation is about like Warrens, Not notice anthing great, but nothing harmful.....Lawman your feed interest me on the no Pea's as I have heard this before several times, but this yr. for Old Bird racing, I'm just using one third 16% Leach Royal Race, One third Hard winter Wheat, & 1/3 Safflower, of course Probotic's, Wey, Vit's, etc....... I tried with no peas last YB & & added rice, seemed to go down several notche's. Hard to say.... The ony thing I would like to suggest is when buys seperate individual grain sacks, is to make sure it is for FEED, & NOT for PLANTING!!! There is a curing, drying process that they have to go through for feeding. I found this out when I lived in No. Wyoming for 10yrs. where it was very hard to buy Cured Pigeon Feed!! Course there was no Racing there, so didn't make any big hurt on them. The Wheat I would buy for planting would give them the runs. This Hard Winter Feed Wheat I buy fro Leach's doesn't do that... Many people that don't Race, or use Flying breeds, might not notice so much of a diff., but nost of us in the Racing look for every edge we can get....... I had a good 1st race 92 mi. today, but was beat,.think I'll end up in the low 20's in the Concourse, with over 2,000 bird release?? Only out one & all but a few were home with-in 47min.of the 1st bird........ Racing Time is here, Haphttp://www.pigeons.biz/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif

[lawman]

Hi Warren,

I got pretty soundly beat by my son this last race (as it should be for his first season of flying) He chose to fly under the loft name "The Swartz" while I'm flying under the name of "Lawman". He is also flying youngsters off of our base stock blood, while I'm flying crossbreds (our stock mixed with another fliers). so far not a good mix

You might want to watch out for the "Highlander and Outlaw" as well, thats my brother and nephew, they are flying a slighly different mix of our same base blood.


Seems you obtain your feed from the same source, we just special order what we want. I personnel think the Royal Race Feed has way to many peas.

Anyway I''ve been working lots of overtime and I'm heading off to catch more bad guys . See you at the races.

Lawman

[SmithFamilyLoft]

So Lawman,

The kid beat the "Ole Man" did he !


Getting back to the feed, yea we can have it special mixed, problem is, what is the "Real" ideal mix for the various times of the year, and stages of racing, breeding etc. I don't really know, if one could design a special mix, which would be ideal all the time. Which is why I suspect, a number of really good flyers obtain a lot of various single seeds to feed. The diet gets pretty customized per the condition of the particular teams, based on what is going on at any particular time. If you have a really super mix that has done well for you, I would like to here what the % break down would be. What % of this seed, % of this and that etc.

I don't know why I was putting the whey in the water, I had not thought about it till you said something. I now have been putting the whey over the feed. I am thinking that a higher, (but not too high) % of protein for the breeders feeding my YB's is critical right now, as well as weaning YB's.

Although I confess, there are some older wise sages of pigeon racing, that tell me excess protein, can "poison" a bird's system. They talk of blue skin vs. pink skin etc. So, I am still cautious of over doing any good thing.

[lawman]

Well so far I've not seen any of the so called blue skin that you mentioned, although I've also read about it in many books. Soon as I do I'll back off on my current program and re-access the current methodology. I believe its the crap portion of the peas that the pigeon has to excrete that overloads the kidneys and liver and that causes the blue breast syndrome.

I keep going back to what I've read about how the pigeon is only able to process up to about 3-5% of the pea. its nice for the package to say high in protein (16%), but when that protein is based on peas, its a bogus claim. It should more correctly claim a percentage closer to 2% protein.

Now with the whey protein you are able to boost the percentage back up, if your feeding 16% feed, your getting for arguments sake 3% actual protein. then by adding the whey protein back on the feed, you've now jumped your percentage back up to acceptable levels, somewhere between 10-15%. you also get the added effect of higher vitamins and minerals sense they are already in the whey protein.

[SmithFamilyLoft]

Hello Law Man,

Well, I have been using a bit more of the whey powder over the feed as of late. I don't know if any one good thing, will ever turn out to be a "magic bullet". But, for now, it is becoming just another item, among the 47 other items, which have been incorporated into diet.

Thanks for your input lawman.