Can domesticated city-pideon be let out for freeflight?

[kgreks]

Hi to all and everybody.

So it happened that my sister came across a 3 week old hatch/fletchling and it is about 6 weeks old now.

What are the chances that she will be able to "home" if let out of our balcony/window? And is it alltogether feasible for the pigeon to go for "walkies" with all the diseases and threats?

And also, is it possible to train pigeons to the extent that they can be taken for walks?

[canaryjayne]

Originally Posted by kgreks

Hi to all and everybody.

So it happened that my sister came across a 3 week old hatch/fletchling and it is about 6 weeks old now.

What are the chances that she will be able to "home" if let out of our balcony/window? And is it alltogether feasible for the pigeon to go for "walkies" with all the diseases and threats?

And also, is it possible to train pigeons to the extent that they can be taken for walks?

Hi kgreks, WELCOME TO PIGEON TALK and hello to you !!!!!
I am not the best person to answer your question but please wait and you will get a good response shortly.
In the meantime please keep your piggie inside. She is not used to the dangers of possible predators, or finding her own food source so will be vulnerable. Also she is very young and may not beable to find her way home.
I think if you want to release it is best if she is released into an established flock where there is a regular food source. She will be better protected in a flock as there is safety in numbers.
Someone with more knowledge will be with you shortly .

[Trees Gray]

Hello and Welcome To Pigeon Talk,

Where do you live?

Do you want to release the bird to a feral flock or do you want it to return like a pet?

First of all a pigeon has to be specially trained to home, and second, there is no guarantee that a feral pigeon has the instinct, it is possible, but a gamble.

It is very possible if the bird is released that it could become a predator's meal. I would worry more about that then it bringing home a disease.

Pigeons can follow you around but I would not recommend a leash, but be very careful outside, hawks will attack, and usually do when least expected.


canaryjayne, you are right on!

[canaryjayne]

Thanks Treesa, It is a good feeling to think Im getting something right. Im learning so much from this site. Jayne.

[pdpbison]

Originally Posted by kgreks

Hi to all and everybody.

So it happened that my sister came across a 3 week old hatch/fletchling and it is about 6 weeks old now.

What are the chances that she will be able to "home" if let out of our balcony/window? And is it alltogether feasible for the pigeon to go for "walkies" with all the diseases and threats?

And also, is it possible to train pigeons to the extent that they can be taken for walks?

Hi jkregs,



What it boils down to, is that once they come of age, they wish to find Mates, and, to build Nests and make Babys.

Where their Nest is, is "home", and if where one has raised them has resources they find important, and if a Male, the Pigeon may very well - if allowed to fly free out in the world - find a feral or wild Hen, bring her 'back', show her his 'territory' and it's resources, and if she approves, they will then build their Nest "there" more or less, where he had been raised and grew up.

If one has raised a Hen, and she is allowed to fly free, she will almost certainly allow her suitor to show her 'his' recommendations for Nest sites, according to places he in some way has staked out or is able to claim...but, too, she may pursuade him to consider places she already knows and likes, which have resources, such as where she was raised and grew up...and in that case, they might elect to build their Nest "there" also...and make and raise their Babys.


This is my experience anyway...'feral-wise' anyway...



Phil
Las Vegas

[pdpbison]

...otherwise, for me anyway, it is sometimes quite an effort to get them TO "go" and stay gone!

These being not only those logistically Orphanned Babys who have grown up enough TO 'go', but, also, those Adults who I have had spend time here to get well from injury or illness.


Often, these Adults elect mates in here, among the other inside free-flying, or free-roving pre-release Birds, and, once released...they as mated pairs, come back, sometimes after weeks, sometimes after years...and they want to make their Nests IN here or in the Workshop...and sometimes I have let them.

If they had elected a non-releaseable Mate, then they make their Nests in here where ever they decide to do so...and I either have to break up the relationship TO release the releaseable one, or let them be.


This can get out of hand you know!


Lol...


Thankfully, I am still on the "not too bad" side of all of it...but it is a wacky time here, always...


Anyway, if you do rehab and Orphan Baby raising with these Birds, you will never lack for having those who need homes because they are not release-able, or, those who grow up fine or recover fine and get released, and elect to come 'back' with Mates and make Nests and so on...weeks, months or years later...


If anything, the challenge 'then' is for this NOT to happen...


Phil
Las Vegas

[Love2everyone]

So Phil, what would you think then that if I rescued a pigeon and she is now healthy and can fly. I would ideally leave her cage door open and have her keep coming back for food. If she stayed for good that would be okay, if she left completely I would watch for her to come back someday but I would be okay. Also I could rescue another bird for a mate to her, and then free them both after they have nested then she would stay. But how do I know when she is releasable?

[JGregg]

Please see the link below which has useful information about how releasable a rescued bird is.

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=10874

[pdpbison]

Originally Posted by Love2everyone

So Phil, what would you think then that if I rescued a pigeon and she is now healthy and can fly. I would ideally leave her cage door open and have her keep coming back for food. If she stayed for good that would be okay, if she left completely I would watch for her to come back someday but I would be okay. Also I could rescue another bird for a mate to her, and then free them both after they have nested then she would stay. But how do I know when she is releasable?

Hi L2e,


Well, my usual manner of keeping, is that only Convelesent Birds are in Cages, untill they are recovered for their free-rove or free-fly indoors time, pending their release...or pending their new Life as 'floor Birds' who do nbot get released.

Babys who I may raise, have their own open set-up and are not usually Caged, but stay put of their own accord, in the manner of their innate or inborne Baby-ways, till they fledge, with some occasions of being taken out doors for them to graze amid the wild/feral flock. Where they then casually become free-fliers in here pending their self-release...or, if there are not enough 'wild' ( feral ) Pigeons in here for them to socialize to, I take them out side more of often, before they can fly, for them to peck with and socialize and get comfortable with the out door feral flock who grazes here every day.


And, usually, any of their release is a gentle self-release...allowed by their relocation to the part of my living quarters where I can have a door open for them to come and go as they like, or by my carrying them into the Workshop or all the way out side... and usually they 'go' back to their lives left-behind from when I got them...or if new to the World young ones, they usually are 'ready' to join the feral Flock anyway...or that is the idea anyway.

Sometimes they go and come back and go and come back and 'then' go...


Those four ( two pairs ) who now live in my Workshop, they go out every day, fly around, come back in when they like, almost always before Sunset.

If I am not home to let them fly in, then I open the Big Door at whatever hour of Night, and they soon fly back in 'then'.


Anyway, generally, what it all boils down to, is that so long as one has a pair who are nesting indoors, they will tend to call that 'home', that is, if they had elected that nest spot freely of their own judgement, or at least if they feel that that 'territory' is safe and has amenities...where, then, they will go out and fly and come back in by night to roost, or, if one is on the Nest, the other will go out and fly and come back to relieve the other, or to stay near.

It is of course very dicey or particular, to let non-releaseable Pigeons go out of doors, or for them to do so unsupervised. And can be very dangerous for them if they are able to fly decently...so, those I do not let out...unless in a Cage just to get some Sunshine now and then.



Best wishes..!

Phil
Las Vegas

[abisai]

kgreks . . . I also rescued and nurtured a ferral squab. He didn't like the coop, so he hangs out in my yard. Walks around the grounds, flies on the roof, and from time to time lands on my head. H e sleeps on the window awning and is quite happy. I put feed, water, and a bathing pan out for him. He comes and goes as he pleases.

[kgreks]

wow a lot of responses,, sorry for my inattendance,, it is in no wa a sign of my interest in the subject. I appreciate all the replies and am geratful to anyone who can help me resolve the fundamental issues concerning the birds future.

First a few quick questions on diet.. can I give the pigeon buckwheat uncooked, dry? Will she be able to cope with that. Is dry rice a no-no? What size should the grit be? Is our current diet of 90% small bird feed adequate for her needs?

Now I will try to give an overview of our situation..

Ideally the bird would be able to live vith us and come and go as she pleases. I live on the top floor of a six storey house in the centre of a pop.400 000 capital called Tallinn.

Btw although I am referring to the bird as her, I dont know its sex. She roams around in our apartment and seems happy enough to live with us. And I would like to give her the best we can offer. So if at all possible and not too dangerous for the bird IŽd be very much for letting her out during the day.

But there are a lot of snags on the way.

First-off, Ill go over the great list at http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=10874

1) Malimprinted. Dependent on me. Seeks actively human company. And although seems a bit wary of guests I dont think she is afraid of humans entirely enough for her not to get into trouble in the city.

2) Not too sure on this point. She seems pretty capable of flight and manouvering, has her tail fan forming pretty well. So in that department she seems ok. But if she does not return, I am not too sure on its survival skills. She pecks seeds around the house but has been fed with canarie seed mix. So she might not be too hot on foraging for herself in the wild.

3) Not too predatorproof She was afraid of our cat instinctively, puffing up whenever she saw her. And the cat has on occasion lunged at her and chased her around a bit, but not too seriously, I imagine wildery cats mean more buisness. Our dog does also not like the bird but only reacts when she comes too close and is not interested in "hunting" her. So she probably has too little appreciation for a canines abilities. She has no idea of birds of prey.

4) Weatherproof? Its spring so I Imagine the weather wont be problem for some5-6 months. But she has lived at room temperature since nearly freezing to death in the snow as a chick.

5) established flock. Yes there probably are many flocks around here. But since I am not too interested in releasing her for good... And what are the chances of her catching a disease from contact with other birds. She already has the white spots on feet thing, prb. from her mother.

6) Most probably there are 0 rehabbers in Estonia

7) It might want to stay and we might be ale to provide for her


So when looking at the list she seems to have some serious malimprintments and a lack of know-how. Her being too fond of humans. Not too sure on her ability to sense danger from aother animals, cars, humans..

But most importantly I have little knowledge of her homing skills or how to train her. I wish I coud have let her out in the garden as abisai so she could get her bearings and spot the landmarks but in our case, since we live in an aparment, it might be "throwing in at the deep end" as she flies out of the window and has to be able not to get confused and remember what home looks like and where she came from.

Besides that, if she manages to cope with the steep learning curve in the beginning I have a sneaky suspicion she might be a female, because she does not have a particularily large chest or impressive size. Now this might be because of our lacking dieat or sth. but what are the ways of determining her sex? But if she is female she might be wooed by a male to move in with him.



So considering all that, what do you think, can she enjoy a full life of flight, or will 15-20 years of life in a safe restricted environment be better for her. And what can I do to make her more releaseable? By relesase I mean being able to let her come and go as she pleases, she can live with us and bring a mate back, thats fine.. And If she sould get lost or be herded to a nestsite by a male, will she be able to survive on her own?

Now that the main info is distributed, I promise I`ll keep my post shorter in the future. Best wishes,, Greks.

[pdpbison]

Originally Posted by Love2everyone

So Phil, what would you think then that if I rescued a pigeon and she is now healthy and can fly. I would ideally leave her cage door open and have her keep coming back for food. If she stayed for good that would be okay, if she left completely I would watch for her to come back someday but I would be okay. Also I could rescue another bird for a mate to her, and then free them both after they have nested then she would stay. But how do I know when she is releasable?

Hi L2E,



I would think, that if you get her used to free-flying free-roving indoors...and with that, only place food and water in some area on a shelf or on the floor...and made sure she has some 'high' places to Roost at night...

If she then is allowed to go out as she likes...she may or may nor come back...but probably will not come back...but at least she would know then, that in her terms of it, there are attractive ammenities to come back to if she wishes to recommend them to a prospective Mate some day.

It all depends on her appreciation on what being 'there' means for her, and or prospectively, for her and a Mate, if he for whatever reason does not have a better situation to offer for her approval...or should he wish to defer to her suggest of her own 'old' familiar place being the one for them.


Cages are not a likely basis for being thought of as 'home' for a Bird who is allowed to fly out of doors...and or will almost never be 'high' or flexible in the manner of casual Night Roosts...and so in my appreciation anyway, the use of a Cage in this kind of situation is extraneous or meaningless or will confuse and compromise the matter.

Left to their own devices, they prefer to sleep or roost nights in "high" places, and to change those places as they like...and if indoors, this means as high as some ledge or shelf or cieling light fixture may allow.

Same with their day-time relaxations...to some degree...


Cages will merely frustrate this prediliction...or be meaningless in the face of it...even if one trys to oblige them to form an association between 'Cage' and 'Food'.


Years ago, when I had something of an 'indoor' Roosting flock, everyone went out ( "exploded" out ) of the Kitchen Window every morning as soon as I or my girlfriend opened it...this Window was maybe 12 inches wid ( the opening half of an old style Steel Casement Window with smallish panes ) , and everyone was a Master-Aerobat at flying full-tilt Boogie and folding their Wings at the last or correct hi-speed instant, to fly out of it faster than the eye could grasp.

And, everyone came back in, flying dare-devil fast through the little Window in their return also, come twillight or a little sooner.


They got fed and watered every day indoors, and out doors also so they and the Wild and Feral others could all mingle.

Oddly, it was rare for any of the feral others to join these and to show up indoors roosting with them...but they all loved to go out and fly by day.

We never made any effort to bring this about, and it just evolved from the two original Pigeons we had, one who was my first, who had been Dog mauled and was onconscious for three days, and who took months to mend of her injurys, and the other, was a male who had lived all his life till then in a little cage as someone's pet, and who had never flown, even though five or seven years old... who after a while, were free to fly outside, without our ever having even thought about it otherwise...

...and these two made a Nest on my Desk, and had many series of Babys, and those Babys brought back Mates, or found Mates amid recovered-there or raised-there feral others our Vet used to give us...


So, far as I know anyway, if one let them go out as they please, and they want TO roost with you at night, then, "that" is their Home, more or less there with you, and or in addition, if they find a mate, bring the mate there, make a nest and make Babys and so on, then that also decides the matter of it being "Home" for them to fly by day, and return to at night...all the more so.

Amenities they will value, seem to be high indoor perches or shelves or other logistically secure roosting opportunities...where they feel safe from any potential preditors or interferences...

Reliable and safe environment in general...reasonable quiet and freedom from disturbing actions or children or other annoyances.

Reliable and decent food and water being available either indoors or close by outdoors in the Yard or something...

And leave the rest up to them.


If one has one Pigeon only, I would imagine the chances of that Bird staying "out" if allowed to go out, are pretty good...since that would be their Natural urge...to go be with other Pigeons for their Night Roosts and day grazings.

If one has a Mated pair, they could care less about everyone else, but for wishing possibly to fly and graze amid their wild/feral kind, and to come home to their own private situation even if they are the only two Birds 'there'...

Anyway, rambley...


This is my appreciation anyway...


Best wishes!

Phil
Las Vegas

[Larry_Cologne]

Hello kgreks,

I read your initial post, skimmed through some of the other posts, and since it is 2:30 A.M. here in Germany, must call it quits soon.

My wife and I raised a couple of baby pigeons to adulthood. The last one, male Wieteke, has raised chicks in our apartmetn with his feral mate. They do make a mess which you have to stay on top of, also for health considerations.

I found Wieteke as an 18-day-old chick (compared him with pictures on the internet). Took him in a box when he was still too small to go out of the nest to where local pigeoons fed, so he would know he was a pigeon. He was too young for release, was very nervous, wa glad to go home with us when they took off. We let him sit at the open window and go outside at his own pace, and he is successfully blended in as a part of the local flock.

Look at the wholw business from this perspective:

How do humans raise their kids?

At first, mom is always around, and the baby is rarely left out of sight. Do the same with your squeaker. Then slowly you expose the kid to others. Usually a couple of adults are monitoring the kids (in Kindergarten, coffee klatches or tea-sipping sessions, et cetera. It helps to have two or more adults around when you let the young kids or pigeons run around a bit, especially since the pigeons have wings, are quick (like kids) and can get into trouble quickly (such as running into the street). An enclosed area is practical.

And, you are not alays positive you are doing the right thing, until you have raised a dozen or so, whether they be kids or pigeons. This parental obsession with wanting to do it right is necessary for the incrreased chances of survival of the young.

In other words, put in a lot of care, trust your instincts, search out and listen to lots of advice and determine what advice is applicable, and put in a lot more care. Kids do die, and chicks often don't make it. Prevent that from happening to the degree that you are able.

Feed kids, and they will grow. Someone once said, it's sad when the kids leave home, but it's sadder still if they don't (if they don't want to, are are unable to).

Larry

[pdpbison]

Hi Larry,


Yes, quite 'so'...


I might get a little misty-eyed sometimes when they go out into the World...

But I know they have far more fun and interesting things to do 'there' than to hang around with the likes of me, in here.

Lol...

And, if I have done my part well, I feel they are as fit to their earnest and other tasks, as I could hope for.


I would say overall, there is likely little to no difference on average or in the all in all, between the Life span of wild or feral Pigeons, and 'domesitic' ones.


Phil
Las Vegas

[Trees Gray]

If you want the bird to live a free life, yet come and go-that is something that can't be guaranteed.

First off, if she is a she, and she accepts the advances of a male pigeon, she will go to wherever, nesting place, he has found. If your pet is a male, there is a better likelihood he will come back with a mate.

You have to weigh the pro's and con's and make the decision yourself, but I myself would allow the bird free flight inside and find her/him a mate when it has matured. The bird hasn't completely matured yet, so wait until then.

If this world was perfect, and your feral flock has abundent acces to clean water and food and people are supportive of them, that would also make a difference overall, and if there were few predators out there, but hawks seem to find groups of pigeons as they are their favorite meal.

The difference in lifespan between a domestic pigeon and feral would depend on their environment, if it is supportive-by humans, and good supply of variety of seeds, legumes, etc. and clean water, nutrition, and amount of predators, the climate, but for the most part, domestic pigeons do live longer lives-if they are cared for properly.