foot fell off what to do now with stump

[daveerin]

Hello,
I'm new here and have been trying to help a pigeon that had bad string feet. Got all the strings off by yesterday and the pigeon seemed to be doing ok but this morning when I went to put antibiotic on feet the left, and worst of the two feet, fell off leaving me with a bad bleeder. I managed to stop flow with dental tape tourniquet and cornstarch but now with a bandage on there is still a little blood/bleeding. The pigeon is on its back to keep foot above heart in hopes that blood will coagulate. How long will this take, when can I set it right side up, what do I need to do the help the stump (fell off at ankle/hock) heal. Right foot looks like it willl survive and be a good foot again so pij will have a leg to stand on. Any help will be greatly appreciated by replying here or directly by email.
I am just being a good samaritan and pigeons are not birds I know anything about.
thanks
dave lyons

[Trees Gray]

Hello and welcome to Pigeons.com

Thank you for helping this pigeon.


I have e-mailed several members of the forum that can help with this, as that is one thing I've never experienced.

[Pidgey]

Ooo! Yes, they bleed and it's best to stop the bleeding as far down as possible. The problems that occur if you clamp it up too high is that the bone will protrude and the skin will adhere to it around the bone. You'd rather that the skin eventually closes over the bone end and forms a pad.

Pidgey

[Pidgey]

Incidentally, the long portion above the toes is called the Tarsometatarsus and is actually analogous to the portion of our foot between the toes and the heal. That is to say that pigeons walk on their toes and the true heel is up about an inch or so above the ground. How far down from that "heel" is the end of the bad one in comparison to the other leg?

Go to this webpage and see if you can use Paint to make a mark on a copy of the file to show where this pigeon's leg separated:

http://people.eku.edu/ritchisong/skeleton.html

Then you can either email it to one of us or post it on this thread.

By the way, where are you?

Pidgey

[pdpbison]

Hi Davereen,


I just thought I would mention that one of the wild/feral Pigeons here, lost a foot from string in 1994,, and she is still doing fine as a wild Bird, having raised many young and is as vivid today as she was 11 years ago.

She devloped a thicker calloused skin over the end of her leg, and aside form a slight limp, walks just fine and takes off and lands normally. Her foot was lost low, just above where the Toes converge, so, really, as Pidgey mentions, she lost actually only some of her 'foot', or lost all her Toes, and her original sole or palm, technically...

Hers did not bleed, however, and was already 'dead' in it's way and tangled-dangleing when I first saw her in the flock here, so I did not have do deal with that at the time.

Too, if there is any way you could post or e-mail an image showing the abbreviated leg, that would help us see better where the leg ends.

It might be prudent to guard against any advance of infection which could compromise the bone in the end of the leg being now exposed somewhat, for which Baytril, orally, might be good, in addition to a topical antibiotic of some kind, and clean conditions of course for the bandaged end to be protected by...but others will hopefully have somehting to say about this.


Good luck..!


Phil
Las Vegas

[Lady Tarheel]

I agree with Phil that a course of Baytril should be started.

Maggie

[daveerin]

Hello Pidgey,
The seperation came at the connection of the tarsometatasis and the digits. I have a picture which I will email to you if I can figure out how to do it.
It started to bleed again and took some time to get it under control and when it stopped for some time, I put liquid bandage on it. I had been giving the pigeon ornacycline (tetracycline for birds) in water but can't say how much she has benn drinking. I also gave her water from eyedropper and she was thirsty so I suspect she didn't drink much from bowl. She is resting in a smaller box indoors tonight and she was resting when I checked. She is a pigeon that comes to the yard of a birdfeeder friend and has a mate there. How long do I need to keep her under wraps? Can I put multiple layers of liquid bandage on? I tried a bandage but being a short stump and a flexing leg it is difficult to get it to stay on. I was thinking of making a bandage around a pencil to form a kind of cloth tube and then slipping that over the leg and fill it with triple antibiotic and glueing the whole business with liquid bandage to her skin, which is quite red and probably very tender. Her other foot looks as though it will be OK and have put on Bach Rescue remedy creme.
thanks
dave lyons
Ventura, CA

[daveerin]

Hello Pidgey,
Here is a picture of the foot after it fell off. Hope this helps with diagnosis.
thanks
dave

[Pigeonpal2002]

Hi Dave,


OH, how awful!!! Seems like a pretty nasty infection must have set in and all the surrounding tissue died....horrible

[TAWhatley]

Wow Dave! That was a nasty looking foot. The bird really does need to be on a stronger antibiotic that can be accurately dosed. Why don't you give Beth Garcia a call and see if she will help you get that stump bandaged and perhaps provide you with some antibiotic. Her e-mail is Cats6birds4@aol.com and her phone # is 805-320-2438. She is listed in our Pigeon Resources Directory at http://www.pigeons.com/prd.htm. I have had the pleasure of meeting her personally, and we exchange e-mails fairly often regarding our bird patients. She is a terrific rehabber, and I think she might be of great assistance to you and your pigeon.

Terry

[Pidgey]

Avascular necrosis. That's about what you'd expect of the foot. Actually a picture of what's left is going to be more informative. What I expect at this point is a slightly protruding Tarsometatarsus. It's probably all still there but possibly Osteomyelitic. That would need to be resolved by antibiotics.

If the remaining skin is too short to cover the bone end, then it's hard to say. I currently have two pigeons with protruding bones that have not been a problem, one being a protruding bone from the remains of a toe. The vet said that the bone has internally sealed and it's not a problem. I think it's slowly wearing away.

In your bird's case, it's going to be a load-bearing structure so the question is how it's going to behave in the future. I've seen a few pigeons with toeless feet in San Francisco and I know that the members who live in many big cities have to address such problems all the time. I think it will be a different call depending on whether you plan to keep the bird vs. releasing it back to the wild. The likelihood of long-term pododermatitis (bumblefoot, but not the classic presentation) is pretty high. I think it would be better if you can get the skin to cover the bone end. Do you know what your intentions are at this point with respect to releasing the bird?

Pidgey

[cyro51]

Hi Davreen,

The same thing happened to one of my rescues, see this thread:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showth...referrerid=560

She will need to be kept warm and rehydrated, because she will be suffering from shock. Instead of giving her plain water mix a pint of warm water, add half a tablespoon of glucose, honey or sugar and half a teaspoon of salt.

The vet told me that sometimes when there is bone exposed after the foot falls off it will necrotise and crumble, then get covered by a pad of skin. This is what happened in my Cinderella's case.

Cinders is still with me and has adjusted well to her condition. In my opinion if they survive after the loss of a foot they are in a better state than if they just lose toes, there seems to be less pain if the whole foot goes.

Cynthia

[feralpigeon]

Hi Dave,

Pidgey's correct about the toeless ones in San Francisco, and there are also footless ones here as well. Wildcare in San Rafael told me that they treat string injuries on pigeons and if necessary will amputate toes and even sometimes feet. After giving the bird time to heal and see how well they are able to bear weight on the foot, will release the bird back to it's pick-up location as long as it is still able to use whatever is left. Surgery maybe different than a situation where the foot has fallen off on it's own as it is a precise science as opposed to having the foot separate perhaps in an inconvenient way for the bird to heal properly. I would think time would tell.

There is one pigeon who comes to my mind, that I used to "play" with in SF, who had two stumps. At one point this past summer, he'd lost all his tail feathers. The last time I saw him, he was still getting along admirably and was well on his way to a set of new tailfeathers. The little guy was fast as hell despite all of his tribulations.

fp

[Pidgey]

There's no accounting for the power of the will to go on. Some have it and will adapt to almost any challenge and others will give up early.

Pidgey

[daveerin]

Hello all,
thanks for the many helpful suggestions. Pij is alive and drinking and grunting a bit, able to stand one her one leg and stump, still in small box to keep her from flaping wings and hurting them. I haven't yet looked at stump this morning--trying not to handle her too much--don't want the bleeding to start again. The picture of the foot looks bad but much of the black areas were blisters filled with some blood and fluid, but no pus as far as I could see. There was no real skin to pull over the bone end and that was about the size of a pencil eraser or less and got covered over with liquid bandage for protection and a little cush on the end. I will have to get this pigeon well for release as I have a starling to care for indoors--hawk victim--and apartment dwelling is no place for a pigeon.I also feed 10 jays, 5 woodpeckers, 20-40 crows,one lovely black phoebe from the hand, starlings and many other small birds, so I'm busy all day. She is a real survivor --a compliment to pigeons everywhere. Thanks Terry for the contact number. As soon as I examine the stump more closely I will decide how to proceed.
Many thanks to all for advice and support.
dave