Found Fledgling in SF - Need Advice :)

[dlgilbert4]

Wow - thank you all for being so supportive. I plan to examine him soon and will post pics between 10:30 and 11:00pm.

[dlgilbert4]

Here is a link to all the pictures I have taken of Cole: http://userwww.sfsu.edu/~danielle/Cole/. The yellow stuff everywhere on his front and at the left corner of his beak is formula.

The zoomed-in pictures of his mouth are at the end. I did not see any yellow or cheesy-like substance in his mouth. The roof of his mouth does have eight symmetrical whitish areas - see the second-to-last picture.

I could not get a good feel for his neck re: possible lumps, as I have no idea as what it should feel like and many of the feathers have formula on them. The bare spots are on both sides of his neck.

Good news: he started honestly taking seeds tonight! So far I have been able to get him to eat off my hand, the towel, and a little out of a dish, but not off the floor. He seems to like the little corn pieces the best (or maybe they are just the easiest for him to grab). How much should I let him eat?

What do you think of his condition?

Danielle

[dlgilbert4]

Hello Phil from Las Vegas,

Wow! What a helpful post!

I will definitely try as you described with the water tomorrow. Hopefully I will be able to make a good "oooOOOooo-oooOOOooo" sound.

Cole has been doing the squeaking with shoulder pumps at each feeding today - it's very cute!

Thank you for clearing up quantity/frequency of water and food.

What about grit? Does he need that now that he is eating seeds? I have some cleaned, washed sand that is leftover from my freshwater fish tank (freshwater = quartz sand with no coral particles or any other CaCO3). Can I use that?

Danielle

[pdpbison]

Hi Danielle,


Glad it goes well...!

He is a little older than I was thinking.

They are quick learners...


Somehow I would not use the old Sand from an Aquarium, but, if you did wish to let him have some Grit, just get some Parakeet Grit or similar at any pet supply place...or, get some Sand from the Beach, boil it, pour off the water, rinse it well several times...and dry it, and use that.

He will find larger Grit once out in the World.


Too, unless you intend for him not to be free and wild/feral, it would be a good idea, soon as he is pecking Seeds decently on his own, to find a feral flock, feed THEM, and while they graze, let your little one be in their midst, pecking with them. Let him have at least five or six such sessions, even if they are only fifteen minutes each.

Stay close, crouch down close to him, and let him know you are watching him. He will likely look 'to' you to make sure you are watching him...and, when he does, offer praise and admirations.

He might be nervous the first time or two, but it will pass...

He needs to be around the wild grown up Pigeons and to be pecking with them, shoulder to shoulder...to learn and take in their modes of being, their awarenesses, and now is the best time, since once he is flying he can not exacly follow you in your 'flying' to graze with you among 'them' and get it that way...so, you can let him get it now, which is fine too of course...which is just-as-good.


Do this as often as you can, or at least every second or third day soon as he is pecking decently, and then, when he does seem like he is ready TO start flying, which will be in something like two weeks or so, you can cease....and then, say a week or week and a half after that, when you do 'release' him, release him TO that particular flock whom you have been letting him mingle with in your feeding of them...and he will have a ready-made flock TO be part of and to learn from after that. He will know what-to-do...


Otherwise, it will be hard on him if he does not have that supervised 'introduction' to wild/feral Pigeon Society and modes of attunement.

And of course once he is flying, it is too late for you to do it.


Meanwhile, he should soon be doing more and more Wing testings, short or even longer stationary flapping sessions...building and excersiceing flight muscles...and then 'Helicoptering' where the flapping is gotten strong and will elevate him a few inches...

He also needs to explore, climb, play, goof around, have room to flap his Wings...so if possible, set him up as I described above, while there is still time for him to decide to accept it...on a Table top or Dresser top...hide all 'post earings' or other things he might eat by error of judgement...and he will then at his own pace, when he is ready, explore 'from' his 'Nest'...and after that he will wish to roost in higher places.

These are Cliff Dwelling Birds by Nature...Babys or youngsters do not tend to 'fall' unless pushed by siblings or feed-time jostleings, or unless ill.

Hea;thy youngsters, in the care of people, will not stay put just as nicely as they do in Nature. Instinctively, he will appreciate being "up", at least albow hight to you...which is convenient then also for visiting him or feed-times.

If he is 'wobbley' he may be weak yet from his time of privation...and it will clear up in a few days.



Best wishes!

Phil
Las Vegas

[pdpbison]

...if you can get the "oooOOOooo!...ooooOOoooo!" sound happenning so he responds to it with enthusiasm and meaning, use it every time you are going to offer Seeds, or Water...

Never use it un less Seeds or Water are about to be offered...and by 'about to be offered', I mean that they will be offered in a second or two is all...no delays past that.

Actually, to revise my prior mention, it is best if the Seeds and Water only come from you offering them, no "bowls" unless you want this to be a 'pet'...and it is best when about TO offer them for you to do the "ooooOOOoo!"...which he will know or soon will understand, means food or water time.

THIS, is very much as their parents do...and for us, then, it can be very useful if you need to call him, and once he is "out of the Nest" it is best for you to 'call' him for Seeds or Water time offerings.

He comes to you then, instead of you going 'to' the Nest...

Once he is not in the Nest any longer, he must come to you by being called to eat or drink.

When he is amid the feral flock, grazing, and you want to go, you can call him and he will come.


All of this, in every way, every detail, if one can learn them, is all of an integrity of practice...there is nothing which does not belong, and as much as possible of what DOES belong, and that can be done, is "there".


Once we bring them home, we are their 'parents', their surrogate parents...

They are happy to accept this...and the more all of it can be for them, and be in their terms, and defer to them in their terms of how they are and what they need, and for their Natural History, the better off they are, and the better off they will be to meet their World confidently, and to be adequate to their present and their future, when released.

So, a week or ten days after he is flying indoors well, able to fly 'straight up' and so on, he is ready to be released.

If you keep him longer than that, it then starts hurting his learning curve for being Wild/Feral, or starts adapting him to be a housebird...instead.




Phil
Las Vegas

[pdpbison]

Hi Danielle,


I dunno, far as the bare of Feathers jaw and so on...

Sometimes it is wise to take this as a possible sign of Canker in their system..
But too, I have seen such bare throats or neck areas or jaws often, and seen it clear up and for these Feathers to grow in fine, with no meds or special treatment.


Something I have done a few times, or started to do more often, is to gently rub in some 'Neosporin' on such bare areas, each day, for a week or so, and I believe this has helped, possibly if follicle Mites are at work...since it may well suffocate them, or at any rate, it has seemed to help anyway, whatever the reason.

If his throat is clear, and the poops and or their attending liquids show no sign of any 'chalky yellow'...and if he seems to continue to be bright and cheerful and active and to grow and gain weight and have a good appetite, it is not likely he has any Trichomona issues.



I used to live in the Sunset a long time ago, for a short time anyway...but I forgot the Streets.

It was on the South and West portion, a couple blocks from the 'Doggie Diner'...near to the Great Highway.

In those days, the only places open late were "Luvs" on Geary Street, or the "Doggie Diner"...


Eeeeeesh, both were hard on one's late night eyes, too...all that hard flouresent light and bad 'red' puffy vinyl and so on...

Lol...


Phil
Las Vegas

[feralpigeon]

Hi Daniele,

I looked at the pictures, and there's definitely something going on there, though
this is one of those times when it really requires more investigation. You sure do get an A+ on getting this baby to O-P-E-N W-I-D-E!! I'll pm you w/my cell and we can talk about some of the options locally.

fp

[dlgilbert4]

Cole and I have an appointment with a local avian vet later this morning. I will post to let you all know how it goes.

Phil, he took water this morning! Not too much, and with a lot of splashing, but he definitely did drink some. My previous attempts were with room-temperature water, so the increase in temperature likely did the trick!

The sand I used was never in a fish tank - no worries. I meant 'leftover' as 'excess'. I did sterilize with very hot water (~150 deg. F) beforehand. I will look for grit at the pet store today.

Danielle

[dlgilbert4]

We just got back from the vet: Dr. Melliar-Smith of All Pets Hospital in SF. She seemed very skilled and knowledgable and was very comfortable in handling him. She did a complete physical exam and found nothing abnormal other than the bare patches. She showed me his crop, showing me where we could see even the seeds he'd eaten recently under his skin.

His heart sounds good. She looked into his mouth and down through his throat into his crop with a lighted otoscope and saw nothing abnormal other than the white patches on the roof of his mouth. No evidence of mites or skin fungus.

Cultures were taken from his mouth and throat, a fecal sample was taken, and she put a sample from his mouth on a slide to check under the microscope. I will let you know the outcomes of the bacterial and fungal tests when I receive them.

Her general opinion is that, other than the bare patches, he is healthy and happy. She said his size and behavior are normal for his age.

Cole is now resting comfortably in his "nest" on the heating pad.

Danielle

[feralpigeon]

Hi there,

Glad the Vet took some samples while Cole was at the office. Did you happen
to have her look at the roof of the mouth and what did she say about this
if she did see it?

fp

[Lovebirds]

Originally Posted by dlgilbert4

saw nothing abnormal other than the white patches on the roof of his mouth.

Danielle

A few weeks ago I gave a new member of our club a couple of birds. He called a couple of days later saying there were 3 white spots in the birds mouth. He isolated the bird and I freaked out!! This guy is a long time pigeon fancier so he was sure it wasn't canker or anything, but didn't know what it was. I found the info below. The bird is now fine, white spots gone and he's flying around the loft. Maybe that's what this bird has??

Salivary stones found in the beaks of pigeons


Occasionally, when examing pigeons small hard white spots are discovered in the area of the crevice in the roof of the mouth and particularly in the rear part.

By almost 1 % of pigeons these fine millet sized nodules are found singly and sometimes 10 or more. It was always assummed that they were small areas of trichomoniasis (canker) but by today's understanding that is not the case.

Cause:
It is commonly known that there are numerous small salivary glands in the mucus membrane of the pigeon's mouth which secrete saliva so that the feed is slightly moistened to allow it to be more easily swallowed. To date it is not known what causes these little white spots which are hard and are known as salivary stones. By examing tissues and the chemicals of these spots or stones it has been proven in Holland that they consists of a mixture of mucus and fine small grains of parts of the cells from the salivary glands. These in turn are rolled into small hard balls and block up the openings of the ducts of the salivary glands. At first they appear to be grey but later they become white in colour.

Treatment:
Experience have shown that no treatment has been successful. Surgical removal only leads to bleeding and damage to the mucus membrane. However, the health and performance of the pigeon is not affected

[dlgilbert4]

Hi Renee,

Can you send this person the picture of Cole's mouth and see if it looks similar to what he saw? Here is the address of the picture: userwww.sfsu.edu/~danielle/Cole/images/dscf2043a.jpg.

It seems more like patches instead of nodules, but it's hard to tell for sure. They're hardly noticable except in bright light (like the flash of the camera). The vet said Candida infections are usually in the crop, not the mouth, and would have rubbed off upon swabbing. Cole's white regions were not affected by the culture swab.

I'm not particularly concerned - more curious at this point. It will be interesting to see if anything comes of the cultures.

Danielle

[feralpigeon]

I thought about the salivary stones as a possibility, but the concurrent lack
of feathering is present alongside the other symptom. Of course the
lack of feathering could be more along the lines of Scaley Face and dealt with
just fine w/a couple of drops of Scatt.

Yeast does in fact occur in the crop, but I have seen it on the roof of the mouth as well. I'm glad that she did run some tests for you. Cappillarias, bacterial infections, pox....and others could be considered exept for the bird's demeanor which is over all one of an average youngster.

If nothing else, the tests will provide reassurance to Danielle, this is all good.

fp

[Lovebirds]

Originally Posted by dlgilbert4

Hi Renee,

Can you send this person the picture of Cole's mouth and see if it looks similar to what he saw? Here is the address of the picture: userwww.sfsu.edu/~danielle/Cole/images/dscf2043a.jpg.

It seems more like patches instead of nodules, but it's hard to tell for sure. They're hardly noticable except in bright light (like the flash of the camera). The vet said Candida infections are usually in the crop, not the mouth, and would have rubbed off upon swabbing. Cole's white regions were not affected by the culture swab.

I'm not particularly concerned - more curious at this point. It will be interesting to see if anything comes of the cultures.

Danielle

Danielle, I can't. This guy lives WAY out in the country and is one of the few people left on earth that doesn't have a computer nor how to work one if he did!! LOL
Sorry.

[dlgilbert4]

Wow - well, good for him. I waste way too much of my time randomly web surfing.

Afternoon feeding went well. He likes to splash the water instead of drink it, but I think he's getting the hang of it.