Found Fledgling in SF - Need Advice :)

[pdpbison]

Hi Danielle,



ACV-Water, being various concentrations of Raw Apple Cider Vingegar ( "braggs" being the brand-of-choice, ) added to a Gallon of Water...

Can be very good for them in many ways, discouraging a variety of un-desireable Yeasts, Candida, Bacteria and other micro-organisms, while at the same time encouraging the desireable ones.

For all I know it may even aid in dissolving 'Salivary Stones' if that is what yours has, and from your description I do not think that is it...

Sounds like you found a really good Vet...!


Pending the outcome of the tests/cultures...or regardless, drinking water and formula Water made to be the ACV-Water, of say Three Tablespoons of ACV to a Gallon, would likely be benificial...and in itself can clear up mild ambigiuous presentations.


I usually have them on it for a week or ten days...


They do not mind the taste.

Too, once he is pecking somewhat effectively, you can cut up, Scizzors work well...cut up some fresh Collard Greens, Kale, or Chard...cut it into little
'diamond' shaped bits say 3/16ths inch or so across...and see if you can interest him in eating these.

Most youngstrs will eat them readily, especially if one peck along side of them and hamm it up, emphacising how 'good' the little flat 'green' bites are.


Also 'Goji Berrys' ( any Health Food Store, get these when you are there getting the Vinegar ) ...the Goji Berrys are loaded with excellent Vitamines and Anti-Oxidants...and if cut into thirds or fourths are easy enough for them to peck.

If he does not peck them, you can 'Seed Pop' cut in half ones...even pre-soaking them so they are well hydrated first.

Wild/Feral PIgeons enjoy to graze on various Greens and small Fruiting Bodys, so these are foods which are both Natural for them and very valuable nutritionally.


Possibly his parents had not enjoyed a wide or varied enough diet when feeding him...and his immune system and nutrition had been a little comprimised.


Good luck..!

Phil
Las Vegas

[feralpigeon]

Yes, it can be a time-warp.....anyway, I have some links for you that you might find useful/helpful.

From these sites in their Trichomoniasis section:

http://www.internationalmodenaclub.c...%20Infestation

http://www.chevita.com/tauben/e-index3.html

Similar conditions:
In adult pigeons, white dots appearing towards the back of the throat are not trichomonas foci. These firm, white or yellowish-grey nodules are, in fact, salivary calculi (sialoliths), formed from the hardened secretions of the mucous glands. They are harmless and should not be removed due to risk of bleeding.


And from this site on Candidiasis:

http://www.theaviary.com/s1295-62.shtml


Your baby's did seem not so much toward the back of the throat but on the roof of the mouth. Hopefully the lab work will be helpful.

The following pictures are of a baby that 'just happened' to get pushed off the ledge of the overpass and had a canker growth the size of a dime in her
crop. Other than that, she had no visible growths in her mouth. But the
loss/lack of feathering was pronounced, far more so than in these pictures after approximately 8 days of Flagyl.

fp

[dlgilbert4]

I'll grab some ACV and some of the suggested greens at the store soon. I want to help Cole be as healthy and happy as possible!

When can he start taking baths? He tried to hop into the water dish while I was trying to teach him to drink - it seemed like he was trying to get in the water.

[Charis]

FYI, my pigeons readily eat fresh minced broccoli tops. They also love fresh minced carrots.
I would say, if he wants a bath, let him go for it.
Fun to watch. Pigeons do love their baths.

[pdpbison]

...yahhhhh, usually somewhere around this age, they can get really interested in taking their first Bath, even though in Nature they would have no access to baths yet...


Anything say like a Cake-pan or other not too deep pan, frying pan or other, makes a nice Bath for them...

Seems like all Pigeons, even those youngsters of this age, like 'cool' Baths and not warm ones.


So sure, set up a bath for him, splash your fingers in it to let him know he is invited, and let him enjoy himself..!


Phil
Las Vegas

[feralpigeon]

Hi Renee,

It looks as though the print in red is a quote from somewhere but I didn't see a link or source cited. It's been such an issue recently, I wondered where
this might be from?

fp

Originally Posted by Lovebirds

A few weeks ago I gave a new member of our club a couple of birds. He called a couple of days later saying there were 3 white spots in the birds mouth. He isolated the bird and I freaked out!! This guy is a long time pigeon fancier so he was sure it wasn't canker or anything, but didn't know what it was. I found the info below. The bird is now fine, white spots gone and he's flying around the loft. Maybe that's what this bird has??

Salivary stones found in the beaks of pigeons


Occasionally, when examing pigeons small hard white spots are discovered in the area of the crevice in the roof of the mouth and particularly in the rear part.

By almost 1 % of pigeons these fine millet sized nodules are found singly and sometimes 10 or more. It was always assummed that they were small areas of trichomoniasis (canker) but by today's understanding that is not the case.

Cause:
It is commonly known that there are numerous small salivary glands in the mucus membrane of the pigeon's mouth which secrete saliva so that the feed is slightly moistened to allow it to be more easily swallowed. To date it is not known what causes these little white spots which are hard and are known as salivary stones. By examing tissues and the chemicals of these spots or stones it has been proven in Holland that they consists of a mixture of mucus and fine small grains of parts of the cells from the salivary glands. These in turn are rolled into small hard balls and block up the openings of the ducts of the salivary glands. At first they appear to be grey but later they become white in colour.

Treatment:
Experience have shown that no treatment has been successful. Surgical removal only leads to bleeding and damage to the mucus membrane. However, the health and performance of the pigeon is not affected

[Lovebirds]

http://www.chevita.com/index.html

sorry. I tried to post a link instead of the actual transcript, but the link just took you back to the home page......it wouldn't link directly to the page that this came from.

[pdpbison]

Hi fp, all...


I have never seen these 'Salivary Stones'...have any of you?


I wonder if the ACV-water would help eliminate them, and or prevent them in the first place?


Phil
Las Vegas

[mr squeaks]

When I took Squeaks in for a "health" checkup over a year ago, Dr. Burke, (my Avian Vet, who has pigeons of his own) found one white spot in the back of Squeaks' throat.

Of course, I panic, thinking Canker or worse! Nothing showed in tests. Dr. B. put him on a med that didn't seem to help. In fact, I almost aspirated him on his last dose - or so it seemed!

Anyway, after some "coughing" and probably cussing me out a blue streak, he was fine.

The spot stayed...Squeaks didn't seem to care but continued about his business guarding his turf!

I checked about a week or so later (the spot had NEVER changed to enlarge or multiply) and it was gone...who knows...haven't seen any since...

[mr squeaks]

Originally Posted by dlgilbert4

I'll grab some ACV and some of the suggested greens at the store soon. I want to help Cole be as healthy and happy as possible!

When can he start taking baths? He tried to hop into the water dish while I was trying to teach him to drink - it seemed like he was trying to get in the water.

That's how I KNOW that Squeaks wants a bath! I have two small stainless steel drinking dishes for my cats and when Squeaks either spends more time than usual around them or when he actually steps in them, I know it's bath time!

I would THINK Squeaks should get or want a bath, but after throwing out a lot of water, I started to "watch" him. Now, I KNOW when he wants or needs a bath!

He either goes to take a shower in the tub OR I full the kitty litter box and awaaay he goes!

[Lovebirds]

Originally Posted by pdpbison

Hi fp, all...


I have never seen these 'Salivary Stones'...have any of you?


I wonder if the ACV-water would help eliminate them, and or prevent them in the first place?


Phil
Las Vegas

I've never seen them either. Not really sure how common they are actually.

[feralpigeon]

Phil, to my knowledge, I have not seen them as whenever there has been abnormal growth inside of the mouth, it was clearly attributable to specific
illness and responded to treatment. Tell you what though, Speers or Ford would be the ones that I would want to look at it in the event that I had a question about it. They are the best $54 dollars I've ever spent.

Guess we'll have to see what the lab says and then extrapolate.

fp

[feralpigeon]

Originally Posted by Lovebirds

I've never seen them either. Not really sure how common they are actually.

I looked a few different ways & couldn't find them in the Clinical Avian Medicine text by Harrison & Lightfoot. Thinking there must be another way they are listed, excluding Salivary Stones, Stones, or Salivary, I looked in the indexes for Manual of Avian Practice by Rupley, Pigeon Health and Disease by Tudor, and Avian Medicine by Tully and couldn't find a lising anywhere in these volumes.

I googled next and found that Chevita.com, Doctor's Corner and Jedd's all
list them but that Jedd's alternate listing of "Sialoliths" retrieved information
from Avian Medicine: Principles and Applications by Ritchie, Harrison & Harrison. (Still no listing in the other
volumes looking it up this way.)

In Avian Medicine:Principles and Applications by Ritchie,
Harrison & Harrison, it says that
it is believed that Sialoliths are associated w/HerpesVirus,
here are a couple of quotes from this text:

"Sialoliths in Pigeons
Mucosal lesions that appear similar to those caused
by hypovitaminosis A have been described on the
palate of pigeons and are referred to as sialoliths (see
Color 13).223 Sialoliths consisting of a proteinaceous
substrate mixed with cellular debris are clinically
recognized in approximately one percent of pigeons.
The etiology of sialoliths remains unknown. However,
based on their histologic, histochemical, chemical and physical characteristics, they are not thought
to be caused by hypovitaminosis A.223 An association
with pigeon herpesvirus infection has been suggested
and seems plausible.110,206,223"

"Inclusion Body Hepatitis
in Pigeons (Infectious Esophagitis)

This herpesvirus has a worldwide distribution, and
various strains show morphologic, pathogenic and
serologic differences (plaque formation in CEF).
Small plaque variants are less pathogenic or apathogenic.
207 The large and small plaque-forming viruses
may be two different strains.206 This virus is serologically
related to the falcon and owl herpesviruses. The
host spectrum of this virus is uncertain, but pigeons
and budgerigars are known to be susceptible.417 The
susceptibility of falcons and owls varies with the
species.
Squabs 4 to 16 weeks of age are most susceptible, but
any age bird can be infected, particularly if immunosuppressed. Annual outbreaks have been described
in some flocks. Transmission can occur through contact
with contaminated feed or water, through direct
contact between mates and through parenteral feeding
of offspring."

According to this quote and Chevita.com, the incidence of Sialoliths in pigeons is 1%.

fp

The bold and italic formatting is mine and not the medical text's.

[pdpbison]

Originally Posted by Lovebirds

I've never seen them either. Not really sure how common they are actually.

Hi Lovebirds, all...

'Salivary Stones'...


I would suspect them to arise from some dietary lack of some kind...or maybe even some kind of odd Bacteria effecting the chemistry of their Glands...

Water here is typically very 'hard' Water, and I have never seen these in looking down a great many Pigeon throats, so I do not think it is a exigency to be associated with High Mineral content Water...

Just museing...

Phil
Las Vegas

[pdpbison]

Originally Posted by feralpigeon

Phil, to my knowledge, I have not seen them as whenever there has been abnormal growth inside of the mouth, it was clearly attributable to specific
illness and responded to treatment. Tell you what though, Speers or Ford would be the ones that I would want to look at it in the event that I had a question about it. They are the best $54 dollars I've ever spent.

Guess we'll have to see what the lab says and then extrapolate.

fp

Hi fp,


Who or what are 'Speers or Ford'..?


Phil
Las Vegas