Found Fledgling in SF - Need Advice :)

[pdpbison]

Originally Posted by feralpigeon

I looked a few different ways & couldn't find them in the Clinical Avian Medicine text by Harrison & Lightfoot. Thinking there must be another way they are listed, excluding Salivary Stones, Stones, or Salivary, I looked in the indexes for Manual of Avian Practice by Rupley, Pigeon Health and Disease by Tudor, and Avian Medicine by Tully and couldn't find a lising anywhere in these volumes.

I googled next and found that Chevita.com, Doctor's Corner and Jedd's all
list them but that Jedd's alternate listing of "Sialoliths" retrieved information
from Avian Medicine: Principles and Applications by Ritchie, Harrison & Harrison. (Still no listing in the other
volumes looking it up this way.)

In Avian Medicine:Principles and Applications by Ritchie,
Harrison & Harrison, it says that
it is believed that Sialoliths are associated w/HerpesVirus,
here are a couple of quotes from this text:

"Sialoliths in Pigeons
Mucosal lesions that appear similar to those caused
by hypovitaminosis A have been described on the
palate of pigeons and are referred to as sialoliths (see
Color 13).223 Sialoliths consisting of a proteinaceous
substrate mixed with cellular debris are clinically
recognized in approximately one percent of pigeons.
The etiology of sialoliths remains unknown. However,
based on their histologic, histochemical, chemical and physical characteristics, they are not thought
to be caused by hypovitaminosis A.223 An association
with pigeon herpesvirus infection has been suggested
and seems plausible.110,206,223"

"Inclusion Body Hepatitis
in Pigeons (Infectious Esophagitis)

This herpesvirus has a worldwide distribution, and
various strains show morphologic, pathogenic and
serologic differences (plaque formation in CEF).
Small plaque variants are less pathogenic or apathogenic.
207 The large and small plaque-forming viruses
may be two different strains.206 This virus is serologically
related to the falcon and owl herpesviruses. The
host spectrum of this virus is uncertain, but pigeons
and budgerigars are known to be susceptible.417 The
susceptibility of falcons and owls varies with the
species.
Squabs 4 to 16 weeks of age are most susceptible, but
any age bird can be infected, particularly if immunosuppressed. Annual outbreaks have been described
in some flocks. Transmission can occur through contact
with contaminated feed or water, through direct
contact between mates and through parenteral feeding
of offspring."

According to this quote and Chevita.com, the incidence of Sialoliths in pigeons is 1%.

fp

The bold and italic formatting is mine and not the medical text's.

Hi fp,


Hmmmm!

Interesting...

Still might just be some sort of Viris or Bacteria anyway...even if not isolated or identified yet.


If something is causing plaque to occur, surely there is 'something' there effecting this to be happenning...


Phil
Las Vegas

[dlgilbert4]

Hello everyone,

Just a quick update...

Cole is already much more active and coordinated. It's amazing to see how quickly he's developing.

His crop is not emptying as quickly as I would like with the seeds, so I taught him to "drink" formula out of a bowl and have him on a half-seeds, half-formula diet. Any tips about crop mobility?

Some success with the bath. He hopped into it and walked around in the water, but didn't bathe as I've seen adult pigeons do.

Now that he's awake more, do I need to provide things in his enclosure to keep him from being bored? What sorts of things would be interesting and safe for him?

Thank you!
Danielle

[pdpbison]

Hi Danielle,


He will not get bored...so long as you feed him or bring Seeds and peck with him off and on and bring him Water off and on through out the day.

They are very patient in their way.

Seeds take longer to pass from the Crop than formula...and typically they hydrate 'there' before passing on down to their Stomachs.

When being raised by their Pigeon Parents, typically the youngsters have full Crops all day long, from being fed or topped-off every so often to keep them full...their parents keep them 'stuffed'...and, at night, the Crop more or less emptys.

The ACV-Water will be very good for him...


So, just keep him ore or less 'stuffed' both by occasional feeds and moreso by supervised occasions of bringing Seeds fresh minced Greens, and some Goji Berrys cut into bite sized bits, ) and pecking with him...and all should be fine.

He should be making about 45 to 50 decent poops every 24 hours...give or take...

Just try not to let him over-eat in the supervised pecking occasions...by remembering that whatever the just-filled content Seed wise, of his Crop...these Seeds will expand as they hydrate from the Water you will be offering off and on...


What kind of Seeds are you providing? I forget...

But whatever they are, you can go get some actual Pigeon Mix...get him started on it...and please, unless you intend for him TO spend his life as an indoor pet, start taking him NOW to wherever the local feral flocks graze, feed 'them'...and set him down to graze with them while you crouch down staying close and watching him...

He needs to have this experience five or six times, for fifteen minutes each time, at least, before he is flying, or else you will have no way to provide it and he will merely fly off unprepared and not socialized to his kind...


Soon as he IS pecking Seeds and getting them, start doing this, it is crucial...and will also help him improve his peckinf faster, being shoulder-to-shoulder with Adult Pigeons...


Best wishes!

Phil
Las Vegas

[Lady Tarheel]

Danielle, you can add either a product called Beneback (a probiotic) or plain yogurt to his formula (about 1/2 tsp). I have found this works wonders in helping their crop to digest the formula.

[feralpigeon]

Originally Posted by pdpbison

Hi fp,


Hmmmm!

Interesting...

Still might just be some sort of Viris or Bacteria anyway...even if not isolated or identified yet.


If something is causing plaque to occur, surely there is 'something' there effecting this to be happenning...


Phil
Las Vegas

Hi Phil,

Sialoliths in pigeons seem to be thought of as viral (Herpesvirus) in the medical community, though yes, either viral or bacterial can cause plaque in general. Put the plaque together w/the loss of feathering at the lower mandible and it suggests something going on there.

Speers and Ford are vets @ the same Avian medical center that I was turned
on to by another member here. They are just remarkable in their knowledge
base. For example, I understand Speers has operated on a Condor, imagine that! Ford raised pigeons for many years.
They are a strictly speaking Birds 'R' Us type of medical center. Here are a couple of links:

http://www.medicalcenterforbirds.com/725968.html

http://www.medicalcenterforbirds.com/725959.html

Danielle, that's some good advice on the probiotics from Maggie. It is
a significant aid not only to the digestion but also in discouraging a rise
in population for organisms that don't do well in acidic environments, namely
most of the things you don't want getting out of hand and creating health
imbalances. Also, compatible w/the raw ACV, or ACV in general.

fp

[dlgilbert4]

Hello everyone,

To those of you who have been following this thread, I have created a new thread on my plan to possibly keep Cole in the Wild "Feral" Pigeons forum - http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=20050.

I will continue posting updates and questions here on his growth and progress.

Cole is doing well today. He has helicoptered a few times, but has not gained any height yet. Best of all, it seems like some feathers are growing on those bare patches on his neck! I will post a picture this evening if I have time.

Danielle

[dlgilbert4]

The cable for my camera has been temporarily misplaced, so no pictures until I find it, but he is definitely growing feathers on his neck.

One of Cole's toes (the outside one on the right foot) is rotated almost completely 90 degrees forward on its long axis (rolled forward, some might say). The vet saw it, palpated it, and said it wasn't hurting him and had been that way for a while, but I'm not sure it isn't hurting.... have you seen this? Is there anything I can do? I will upload a picture of it as soon as I can.

Danielle

[dlgilbert4]

I got a call from his vet. The mouth, throat, and fecal samples were all negative for fungus, worms, and protozoans (no canker - yay!).

[Reti]

Excellent update. Thank you for letting us know.

Reti

[dlgilbert4]

Here is a side-by-side comparison of Cole one week ago (the day he was found) and today. It is amazing how fast he is growing!

P.S. His eye is fine - it's just the camera flash reflecting off the back of his retina - the same thing that causes "red-eye" in pictures of people.

[dlgilbert4]

Here are two pictures of what I was talking about with this toe. See how the outside toe on his right foot is crooked and rolled forward? What do you think?

[relofts]

Cole looks great, he is growing and you are a good mommy pigeon person, his toe will be fine, he will learn to use it as it is so I would not worry about it what so ever.

Great job with your little youngsters, keep up the good work.

Ellen

[feralpigeon]

Originally Posted by dlgilbert4

Here are two pictures of what I was talking about with this toe. See how the outside toe on his right foot is crooked and rolled forward? What do you think?

Hi Danielle,

I notice that on the left foot, there is a very small segment that is brown in color (Middle toe) and wondering what that is?

The right foot, one of the toes appears to be curved backwards in a way that
I don't usually see. Is this what you are referring to? There might be an issue
of arthritis later on in life, I don't know that it is a given though.

Cole is adorable and it does look as though you are getting some feathering
in the area around the lower mandible. So this is something that you are
probably still keeping an eye on as well. How are the abnormalties inside the
mouth coming along?? If this was what the text was talking about, it
would be viral and a bit soon to take out of isolation. You could run
a test I'm sure or treat as though viral in origin and give it the commensurate
time in isolation and care. This is how I'd most likely proceed if there were
evidence of abnormalty w/out lab work especially if I found matching symptoms in medical texts. Something to think about.

fp

[dlgilbert4]

Thanks, reloft. It's nice to not worry.

Originally Posted by feralpigeon

Hi Danielle,

I notice that on the left foot, there is a very small segment that is brown in color (Middle toe) and wondering what that is?

Poop.

Originally Posted by feralpigeon

The right foot, one of the toes appears to be curved backwards in a way that
I don't usually see. Is this what you are referring to?

That is what I'm referring to about the rolled toe. If you look at the claw, especially in the top picture, you can see that the toe is completely sideways. The side that would usually point straight up actually points straight forward, so he is walking on the side of his toe rather than the bottom.

Originally Posted by feralpigeon

Cole is adorable and it does look as though you are getting some feathering
in the area around the lower mandible. So this is something that you are
probably still keeping an eye on as well. How are the abnormalties inside the
mouth coming along??

The white regions are almost gone! I hadn't checked his mouth in a few days since it is hard on both on us for him to open his mouth VERY wide at JUST the right angle, but only the left rear region is still white, and it appear smaller. Whatever was causing the whiteness appears to be in control.

Thanks, fp.

[feralpigeon]

Originally Posted by dlgilbert4

....

That is what I'm referring to about the rolled toe. If you look at the claw, especially in the top picture, you can see that the toe is completely sideways. The side that would usually point straight up actually points straight forward, so he is walking on the side of his toe rather than the bottom.

Yes, it also looks to be pointing backwards as opposed to slightly
right of center and forward.

The white regions are almost gone! I hadn't checked his mouth in a few days since it is hard on both on us for him to open his mouth VERY wide at JUST the right angle, but only the left rear region is still white, and it appear smaller. Whatever was causing the whiteness appears to be in control.

I'd just keep an eye on that. Does sound to be more viral than anything else right now especially because of the tests and the supplying of supportive care only.

Thanks for the update, I'm sure s/he'll continue to do well in your care.

fp