Greetings!

[pdpbison]

Originally Posted by Athalie

I am not a naïve first timer, I am a person who is trying to help. If I am doing something wrong is because, like you have pointed it out, I have no knowledge and even less information about how to feed a baby collared dove.

Thank you Athalie,


I am very sorry there were some misunderstandings here.

Please try and understand, that I am interested in helping you care for this Dove, and were I not interested in that, I would not have posted the several Posts in which I was providing information for you.


Please try and understand how very difficult it is to be on this side of the issue, when reliably, people DO make mistakes which injure or kill the Bird, and I am trying to head off such mistakes by providing useful and real information.


Your Dove looks 'sick' or depleted to me, and my sense of it was that you do not have a lot of margain for error left.



I have no way of second guessing what someone is doing, or not doing, other than to read what they say they are doing, and to offer info on what to do, and how to do it...and, also, on what hbot to do.


Please accept my apology, I did not mean to offend you..!

I can be bothered taking care of it, in fact I sit at the window from 7 am till 6 pm watching for the parents to come and feed it because I know I have no clue about what to do.

And, I have been offering information to you, about what to do.

And, information on what not to do, also.

I’ve read everything that was available on the internet but every single site I went on recommended either dog-food or Exact hand feeding formula, which by the way is not available in shops in England anywhere. I am not stupid, I know birds can’t have tinned dog food, I would never give it any, or force feed it for that matter.

I am glad.


Many people however, do force feed them 'tinned' Dog Food, or other 'wrong' things, many peo[ple 'cook' some version they concoct of 'formula'...and these are educated, caring people...they are not "stupid" people...they had simply heard that IS what one does, so, they do it...

It happens all the time...

It happens in these threads here, and aside from me, virtually no one ever asks them WHAT they are actually doing, nor allows the person to know what NOT to do, virtually no one ever realizes that 'details' matter, review matters...the person says " I am feeding him some Dog Food and he seems a lot better now!" or, " I mixed some Dog Food and some Cereal and cooked some formula and fed it to him, and..." and everyone offeres cuddos and positive emotional support things, and no one realizes the mistake which IS happenning. Then the Bird dies, and everyone offers condolances on how much the person cared.


Okay, meanwhile, no real details were covered, and the gestures failed for want of real information and for want of understanding or clearification, "details" matter.


Same with 'microwaving' formula...and scalded Crops or Esophaguses.

Same with lots of things which enter into all this.

So, please forgive me, I did not mean to offend you...


I was wanting to 'inform' you, and to review in over-view, generally, how information is important in order to foster good decisions and practices, and to avoid mistakes.

I can only say that I have done my best and that the baby seems better then when I found it. I did not cook the cornmeal I mixed it up in hot water, as for blocking, the only thing that ‘pap’ would block is the eye of the needle.

Well, I do not know then where the 'cooking' thing came from, I thought you were being quoted as having 'cooked' it...and as having mixed it with 'dog food'.


Sorry...

I will buy pigeon seeds first thing in the morning and will take the time, as I have done till now, to get him used to it. I have a limited amount of information and even that is so varied it seems to contradict itself.

Well...at no point have I or anyone else recommended you get 'Pigeon Seed'...so hmmmmm...


You see?

I Do mean this kindly!!! Please, accept it kindly!

But pause here a moment and see what has happenned, because this IS what "happens", all the time, relliably, and someties disasterously, and no one notices...even as we deal with trying to make all these apologies about how difficult it IS to comunicate, you say 'Pigeon Seeds'...


No matter how simple and clear I might make something, we both may find it has not been understood.

No, not 'Pigeon Seeds', which typically are a Mix of small and large Seeds.


But...


"Small, Whole Seeds"...such as Finch Seed, Canary Seed...these would be safest and easiest for her, and are what a Dove or young Pigeon would find easiest and ost inviting, for them to learn to peck.

will let the behaviour of the bird be my guide I know him enough to judge if he doesn’t like something.

Well, his 'behavior' is that of a Sick or fading Dove, who is either ill, or very faished, or both.


How you wish to evaluate this on no or small prior experience, I am not sure, but if he were well, he would be far too active for you to even catch, let alone, handle.


So, my sense of it is that he is in some fairly frail shape, and, when they are in that shape, they do not have much margain for error as far as what is fed to them.

Till I get the seeds tomorrow I will continue giving him the hydrating mix just in case the drain clogs up
Thank everyone who offered to help I will make sure to let you know how Bo gets along.

Very good.



Again, I am very sorry if my speaking in general terms about the ways these situations DO reliably go 'wrong', if that offended you or you took it personally.


Please forgive me.

I do not think you are 'stupid'...I merely wished to allow you information on which correct decisions could be made for the well being of the Bird, and for your own emotional well being to see him through this.

I appreciate the time and care you are showing this Dove,and I wish you well...!


Good luck..!


Best wishes,


Phil
l v

[Athalie]

I am truly sorry if I got you in trouble, I know you were only trying to help, but then, so was I. I am unspeakably grateful for the advice you gave, I would never do anything to harm that bird, he is, as his name says Precious (Bo) to me and so is every living creature. I have turned my bedroom into a sauna to keep the bird close by, I padded the windows with cushions to make sure there’s no draft, I can’t even remember if I ate anything today, I spent all my time in front of the computer waiting for advice. I said in my first posting that I will only force-feed as a very last resort, only did it twice since I had him, thank God I found a better way that suited him. I am very sorry if I didn’t express myself as clear as possible, I am not English-born, I am Hungarian living in the UK and when I said I “cooked” the pap I meant I prepared it. My grandparents own a farm, I grew up there and they always gave baby chicks warm, damp cornmeal as a boost in the morning, that’s why I thought it might help the bird. I made it as runny as possible because he’s already dehydrated so he needs as much moisture as he can get.
He is very lively now, has had a few sips of hydrating mix every 10 minutes, he doesn’t seem to want any more so I won’t force him. I will keep checking on him every 2 hours, make sure he’s ok.
My most sincere apologies for getting you in trouble, I appreciate your advice, I’m sure you only want the best for the baby. I will not feed it anything other then Finch seeds or Canary seeds and hydrating fluid. I will also keep an eye out for the parents tomorrow they might feed him at least once a day.

P.S. Thank you senior bird Dezirrae for your prayers, they are very welcome, I will send one back to you

Best wishes and many thanks
Bernadette

[pdpbison]

Originally Posted by Athalie

I think I solved the problem. I have some extra-fine cornmeal and some grits (very finely ground whole grain) I made him a runny porridge-like pap from it. I boiled them in the hydrating fluid and mixed a pinch of dog food pure in it as well. I also took apart a thick pen and poured the pap in there, he ate two pen-fulls, have no idea how many milliliters though He also drank a lot of the hydrating fluid, seems very lively and content now. I warmed up a gel pack in microwawe and put it under his fleece blanket. Ill keep giving him the hydrating mix. He is already pecking at my fingers.
Thank you for the help. I will let you know a bit later how he gets on

Hi Athalie,



I guess this is what led me to suppose you had 'cooked' the formula.


And, I had wanted you to also know not to do so.


Best wishes,


Phil
l v

[Athalie]

I post these pictures so you could judge how he looks. His spirits sure have improved, especially since he’s drinking the hydrating formula. He had a few more sips of it just now and is moving about his box trying to fly out. I will turn the light off now but will set my clock to check on him every two hours. I will not give him any seeds tomorrow until I posted a picture of them, just to make sure I know just like me many people mean well and it must be extremely hard for someone who is experienced not to get upset or angry at some of the silly things they do. It is very hard for me too when family members insist on stroking it, guess I am a bit protective, that’s why I chose to keep him close by.
Thank you again for everything, I won’t feed is anything other than finch seed or canary seed unless I have instructions to do. I am still hoping that the parents will take interest.
Good night, best wishes

[Pidgey]

You can feed him a standard dove mix, which might contain wheat, milo, dried peas (various kinds), safflower seeds, hemp seeds, barley, millet, small corn (popcorn) and any of many other types of seeds and grains. He's easily old enough to digest that. He ought to be eating about 10 to 15% of his weight per meal in seeds and liquid. You don't want him drinking too much liquid since it doesn't have all the necessary stuff in it. They will sometimes drink too much, thinking that that's all they need to eat and then not be getting enough.

Pidgey

[pdpbison]

Hi Bernadette,



The 'Lap Towell Cave' ( I posted a link to images of it in an earlier Post ) would be a very nice method for liesured warmth, and togetherness, while allowing incidental feedings and hydration sippings, and so on, and general comfort and assurance for him, and, soon, for the little 'Shot Glass' of small whole Seeds for him to be pecking.


If for now, he likes the 'warmed' Corn Meal gruel, by all means, keep offering it in small meals, and, his system will be processing the food, and, he should start making some poops for you to count, examine, and be glad for.




Yellow liquid or yellow Urates, can signal the presence of illness, so if you see any, or if they occur steadily, please let us know.

'Canker' is very common in Dives of all kinds, and will see the youngster become 'grounded' after fledging, and or see his parents decide not to feed him even, if they sense he is ill.


And Canker in many occasions, can show 'yellowish' Urates.





When healthy, the poop will usually be brown, or tan, or brownish-green, or tan-green, and curled like thin rope more or less into a little ball, usually about the size all tolled, of a medium size 'Raisen'...and, the Urates will be a White 'paste', on top.


If you you have any Bulgar Wheat or Oat Groats, you could try those to see if she might peck them...even cutting the Oat Groats in thirds with a Knife or Scissors. Oat Groats especially are 'good' Seeds for Doves and Pigeons.

If you have these but she is not interested to peck them yet, you could grind some up and add them to the Corn Meal.





Just so we all know, to review the reasoning of my reminder - the danger of Cooked grains, is that the Glutens in them will tend to make for a rather adhering mass once they have sat a while...

When we add water to uncooked ground grains, we get a sort of loose porriage, which even when it sits, and absorbs water, is easily mixed or dissolved by light stirring.


If the same things are cooked, they can adhere into a mass which when it sits, will not dissolve eaily even when stirred or when more Water is added.

This can happen also with raw grains which are ground TOO fine...and thuis is the 'danger' with store bought 'formulas' which everyone always recommends.

Many care givers get into trouble with these stroe bought powders, and need to have a lot of details explained, in order to avoid the dangers or problems.


And, this is what can happen then in their Crop then...the mass of adhering to itself stuff, sits there in the Crop, even if it was 'thin' when fed to them, it looses a lot of it's Water in the Crop, thickens, stiffens, and becomes a conforming 'slug' which does not dissolve, and which does not pass...even when we give the Bird more Water.

It spoils there, in a day or so less, being 'warm' and moist, with background Yeasts and other Organisms feeding on it, which make toxins for the Bird's system to deal with, sickening the Bird, and or also begin to infect the Crop itself on the inside, and the Bird then is in very serious and likely fatal trouble unless the situation is remediated, and few Vets would know about this to realize it is an issue, or, to know it is happenning to be able to do anything about it.

We have a thread now in a different section, where that is probably what happenned, but with feeding too fine a grind of store bought formula 'powder' mix, and other incidental complications...with a couple Babys.

This makes me sad of course, but I have to accept that when somone really does resent or reject me asking, it is best for me just to leave it alone then.


I know you want the information, and have from the beginning, and I know you are interested to learn.

So, we are fine and having fun and we got over our difficulties easily..!



We have all seen that Pot of Oatmeal or other 'Cooked Cereal' which was not finished from Breakfast, and how 'easy' ( NOT! ) it is to dissolve it then in the sink, yes?


Lol...


Yes...


So, we see from that, how 'cooking' ground or fine Grains can make for a glutinous, self adhering 'mass'...which will resist dissolving later...


So...


I like to remind EVERYONE here about that, since it is important...and I am the self-appointed 'Broken Record' here for these 'remindings'.



Lol...


Phil
l v

[pdpbison]

Originally Posted by Pidgey

You can feed him a standard dove mix, which might contain wheat, milo, dried peas (various kinds), safflower seeds, hemp seeds, barley, millet, small corn (popcorn) and any of many other types of seeds and grains. He's easily old enough to digest that. He ought to be eating about 10 to 15% of his weight per meal in seeds and liquid. You don't want him drinking too much liquid since it doesn't have all the necessary stuff in it. They will sometimes drink too much, thinking that that's all they need to eat and then not be getting enough.

Pidgey

Hi Pidgey,



He is coming off a fast...likely has never self fed...and might have Canker or other as yet semi-mild illness.


No young Dove I have ever had would eat anything BUT the smallest Seeds, untill much older.

The only exception being the "White Safflower" Seeds, which they seem to manage well with and elect along with the other 'tiny' Seeds.


Hence, my wishing to allow things to be as SURE as possible, I have suggested "Small, Whole Seeds" such as typical Finch or Canary seed mixes.

These are also more SURE to pass a possibly inflamed or iffy digestive system, Crop passage to Stomach, and so on, pending how things go.

A week of that, and if all seems well, then, sure, offer Bigger Seeds, and see how he does with those.


That is what I would do...and that is what I do 'do'...


Make sense?

Best wishes!


Phil
l v

[Pidgey]

The stuff that we put in our finch feeders is straight thistle seed. And a lot of the canary seed that I've seen had an awful lot of millet in it, which (I've always heard) doesn't have a lot of food value in it. Cynthia and John have mentioned dove mixes several times and I've no idea what the composition of stuff like that's going to be in the UK. I figure that any standard dove mix there will be primarily smaller seeds anyhow. If the bird wants to pick up a pea then so be it--it can certainly swallow it if it wants to.

Pidgey

[Reti]

He looks so much better in the last pics. Great job.
Keep on doing what you're doing.

Reti

[Athalie]

Good morning everyone! I have never been so awake yet I haven’t slept at all  kept shining the light from the mobile phone on the poor thing to check if he’s ok  He pooped three times between 12 and 7 this morning, once at 1,38 , it was curled up about the size of the tip of my thumb with a dark-green and white colour. He smeared it though trotting about the box so I, the second tome ha passed one at quarter to 4, it was slightly runny, although he might have smeared it again, I found it like that. The third one I can’t tell when it happened, found it not long ago and it was nice and dried up but again smeared  I tried putting tissue paper in the box but he can’t seem to get comfortable on it. I didn’t give him any hydrating mix during last night, I prepared some now, waiting for it to cool down. I saw one of the parents flying away, might be going for food. Should I put the baby outside this morning in case the parents take interest? It seems very cold…
The pet shop only opens at 9, the nearest one is about an hours walk, I can’t drive so if I can’t find the finch or canary seeds there I will have to give him a tiny bit of the cornmeal. I will buy some oat grots and burglar wheat, there is a bio-shop on the way to the pet store, just in case.
I noticed some positive changes, he is alert, moving about his box, even trying to hop out Think it might be a bit cold, but he doesn’t like to be covered with anything so for now I will let him be. He hasn’t slept since I fed him that gruel and gave him the hydrating mix so I guess that is better than constantly sleeping.
I will post pictures of the seeds I get as soon as I get back. Hopefully I can find the ones that were recommended.
Thank everyone for the help, I am delighted that he looks better

[pdpbison]

Hi Athalie,



Sounds good all round...!


If you feel he would not bolt or get away if feeling an impetuous burst...go ahead and see if his Parents will feed him..!


So much the better of course, if they do!

Once he IS feeling better, and is getting the nourishent he needs and catches up to himself, he WILL be a "handfull" believe me..!


Use a white or light color Towell to keep him on, if he will abide it...you can see the poops easily, as well as it will be soft and warm for his Feet.



Till next...!


Best wishes,


Phil
l v

[pdpbison]

Hi Athalie,



Some 'Dove' storys and images here -


http://public.fotki.com/PhilBphil/young-dove---july-1/


&


http://public.fotki.com/PhilBphil/december-1st-dove/



If you click on the first Image, it enlarges and also has Captions about what is being shown.



Here is how we can feed them when they are Babys or even ones of your's age, so long as we invite them correctly, and prepare foods they will enjoy, but it is a LOT if info on how to do all this far as making the foods and so on, and Doves especially ( or the Mourning Doves especially, ) will NOT eat foods they do not enjoy, so, it has to be right in their terms, or it is a no-go with them -


http://public.fotki.com/PhilBphil/baby_dove_-_july/


Anyway, thought you might enjoy these, and, you can hold your Dove up to the Computer for him to see these also..! He might like them!


Lol...


Mine never seem to pay one iota of attention to anything on my Computer though...even when I try and show them things of interest...



Best wishes...


Phil
l v

[cyro51]

Hi Athalie,

I am so glad that he is feeling better. I haven't seen a "dove mix" for years, we use small seeds found in KT conditioning mix or a treat mix that John buys at Gem supplement. The smaller seeds found in wild bird mix will be fine.

I have been a member of this forum for 6 years mnow, I have had to hand raised collared doves for several years and have not had a single one develop slow crop or die of other causes. So please believe me, I am not inclined to give you duff or dangerous information on how to look after Bo. I know how precious dovies are.

I feed formula (Kaytee Exact or Nutribird) or Ready Brek, which most experienced people do. White bread can form a bolus if fed to dry or in too great a quantity, wholemeal bread is an good emergency food. As I said before, Nooti who is a lot more experienced in rescuing collared doves than most of us recommended Ready Brek, and my current little dove is on that, is lively and passing good poops.

Another good "hand feeding food" that you must have heard of is Chick Crumbs, soaked for half and hour in hot (not boiling) water, liquidised and sieved.

This is the thread about my latest dove, Forget-me-Not:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showth...referrerid=560

As you will see they are roughly the same age. They develop very quickly.

To help him develop waterproof feathering you can mist him with warm water every two or three days.

Cynthia

[Athalie]

Hello everybody! These are the seeds I found at the pet shop, the man there said the black ones are for finches, don’t know… . I posted the pictures just to be sure. He is doing very well now, grooming himself and looking about. Gave him some hydrating mix just before I left and just a tiny bit of very runny cornmeal gruel on the tip of my index finger. I tried putting him outside but the mum/dad wouldn’t take notice. Had to chase him to bring him in he seems to like it outside. Wish it was warmer … Oh well, it’s nice to have him around I will try the dove cave method Phil recommended with the canary seeds, I wont use the black ones until I’m sure it’s ok.
I will try and get Ready Brek or chick crumbs for him in case he doesn’t like the seeds. I will keep writing how he is.
Thank you very much for your help.

[Athalie]

I’m trying to upload the pictures of the seeds but it keeps saying upload error. They are finch and canary seeds, I mixed them together in a small glass tea light holder (a bit shorter than the shot glass). I put him on my lap on a fluffy towel and covered him with a small face towel, ha pecked at them immediately but only swallowed two and played about with the rest. I keep offering it to him but he doesn’t seem to want any more. I will give him a tiny bit more of the cornmeal gruel he gobbles that up, guess he likes it. Does he need water or is the hydrating mix enough?