HELP!!! 4 days post-hatch - NO MASS INCREASE

[ajumma]

Hello. I have no experience in hand-raising birds, but somehow got two hatchlings of fantails, and was feeding them with the mixture of Gerber (chicken), plain yogurt and vitamins and amino acids. They are fed three times a day, and when feeding I checked the size of the crop so that I am not feeding when they are still full.
The problem is that although it seems like they are eating OK their mass is not increasing. And they seem to have difficulties in defecating (I can see that they are trying hard!). Anybody knows what to do?

[Pidgey]

Is there any way you could get some Kaytee Exact Hand Feeding Formula or something comparable? Where, basically, are you?

Pidgey

[ajumma]

The thing is that I am in South Korea, where most of the formula are not available.
Do you think the problem might be the formula?

[Pidgey]

I kinda' suspected from your chosen name for the forum that an exotic location might be the case. There's a recipe for a really good formula on here somewhere--back in a sec with a link.

Pidgey

[Pidgey]

Okay, go read this thread:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=15236

Do you have a scale capable of weighing these little guys? I ask because it's harder than you think to tell that they're growing for the first few days.

Pidgey

[ajumma]

I think I have seen this info. There was no way I could get digestive enzymes, so I could not do anything about it. It may sound stupid but how important it is to follow the exact amount of all the components?
Luckily, I am using digital balance (borrowed from a lab) with 0.1g precision. On the first day, they were 10-11g; now they are 13-14g, the same mass as two days ago. Is it normal? I expected the growth rate would be higher.

[Pidgey]

Well, it should be although they usually grow a lot slower on formula anyhow. Sometimes they suffer a case of "aerophagia" where they swallow some air and it looks like they're more full in the crop than they really are. Is there any way that you could get some adult birds to foster them?

Pidgey

[Pidgey]

The statistic out of the book, by the way, is that they typically double their mass within 34 hours from hatching providing they're being raised by their parents and there are no problems.

Pidgey

[ajumma]

We still have the parents - but I am not sure if the parents would provide food to the nestlings. All started when somebody (who had no idea on what will happen) took the eggs out of the nest and put them in the incubator. Is there any chance that the parents would accept the hatchlings if we took the nestling back?
I am also checking if there's air inside their crop, and on and off I am removing the air. Hopefully I am doing OK in terms of that.
Double the mass by 34 hrs - sounds not optimistic at all...

[Pidgey]

They might--couldn't hurt to try if you stay close by and watch to see how the parents take it.

Pidgey

[Reti]

If you can't find any formula for baby birds in your area try switching from Gerber chicken to Gerber cereal. Also yogurt is good for the probiotics it contains, but try to keep the yogurt to a minimum. A ml or two of yogurt a day is enough for them.

Reti

[feralpigeon]

Originally Posted by ajumma

We still have the parents - but I am not sure if the parents would provide food to the nestlings. All started when somebody (who had no idea on what will happen) took the eggs out of the nest and put them in the incubator. Is there any chance that the parents would accept the hatchlings if we took the nestling back?
I am also checking if there's air inside their crop, and on and off I am removing the air. Hopefully I am doing OK in terms of that.
Double the mass by 34 hrs - sounds not optimistic at all...

Hi ajumma, a thought struck me while reading this post, that if massaging
the crop to get any possible air to escape, this should be done w/great care
and when the crop is let's say no more than 1/3 full. If your babies' crops
are not ballooning w/air, there is just a normal ebb and flow to the operation
of the crop in a healthy baby. Maybe just relax a bit, even though it's your first time being a pigeon parent .

Just a little summary of the site....the site index page lists all the different
sections/forums that are available to members. Here's a link to the Resource
Section:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f25/

There's alot of information in this section in the form of "stickies" on healthcare issues and notably on the care and feeding of babies as well
as different methods of feeding. Here are some links to a few of those including how to provide supplemental heat:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=13601

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=9918

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=9682

Here's one on the day to day development of babies:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=9500

Some of the information you may already be aware of, but I just wanted
to make sure that you had a chance to look through it.

Are their crops emptying without any difficulty?

fp

[ajumma]

Just wish to thank everybody who showed their interests -- This is really amazing!

I think I did not "squeeze" too much so it would be OK.
The speed of the crop being empty is really slow. I am not feeding them a lot (probably less than 1/2 of the maximum) but it takes nearly 5 hrs to feed them again.
I checked the pictures of daily growth - it is sad to find out that my squabs, although they are 4-5 days old, they are still the size of 2 day-old chick in the picture..

[feralpigeon]

Originally Posted by ajumma

Just wish to thank everybody who showed their interests -- This is really amazing!

I think I did not "squeeze" too much so it would be OK.
The speed of the crop being empty is really slow. I am not feeding them a lot (probably less than 1/2 of the maximum) but it takes nearly 5 hrs to feed them again.
I checked the pictures of daily growth - it is sad to find out that my squabs, although they are 4-5 days old, they are still the size of 2 day-old chick in the picture..

Your welcome...just wanted to raise that issue of checking the crop, as there
is the possibility of causing them to aspirate if food comes too far up when
'squeezing/checking'.

OK, well, check on the warmth of the babies, they can get a sluggish crop
just from not being warm enough. It's very politically incorrect, but I do have
old down vests on hand that I use for babies that simulates the warmth
that the parents provide....anyway, check the body temperature issue for
these two.

You might want to add some applesauce to the mix here to see if this will
help w/the crop function. Another thing that can help is giving them warm
water between feedings. Don't know if you have health food stores in Korea
similar to what is available here, but a human grade probiotic may also be of
help for these two babies. Try some of the suggestions made so far and see
if you notice any changes and we can go from there. Good luck and look forward to your updates.

fp

[Trees Gray]

Originally Posted by ajumma

We still have the parents - but I am not sure if the parents would provide food to the nestlings. All started when somebody (who had no idea on what will happen) took the eggs out of the nest and put them in the incubator.

I hope you properly told this someone that pigeon parents are BEST at raising healthy babies, as they have all the proper equipment.

Once they are old enough to swallow seeds, that is what their parents will regurgitate to them, should they accept them.They should be around 10 to 15 days, that is when the crop milk diminshes and their seed diet would normally increase. Do you have any other pigeon couples that have been parents, they might also be likely candidates?

If they are not pooping because of the mixture may be too dry, you can add a drop of olive oil to help them poop, but NO more then a drop, even 1/2 a drop would be better.