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#16
16th September 2006, 05:13 PM
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Hi Raine, Yahhhhh, I sent off the info to you...it is a little long and redundant in places...but heed it all in every way, and you and your Peeper will be happy... Quote:
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Hmmmm, this is not normal, and concerns me a little bit... I think what I would do, if confronted with this 'air' Crop thing, is to mix up a Gallon of ACV-Water, and for him, to the tune of Two Tablespoons of raw Apple Cider Vinegar to a Gallon of good quality Water... And use 'that' both for his formula-mixing, and his drinking water, for the next four or five days, and see what goes on from there... He may have the beginnings of a Candida or Yeast infestation, either from having got chilled at some point previous, where his Crop process and digestion was slowed, or from the KT in combination with that, if he has not been warm enough at any point since your getting him. The ACV-Water should take care of it, if that is the cause of this 'Air'...and I would start now, and not wait. Best wishes! Phil Las Vegas 
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#17
16th September 2006, 06:53 PM
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Hi Raine, Your message was completely blank, containing no text at all. So...I dunno..! Lol... But I sent off the info to you...it is a little long and redundant in places...but heed it all in every way, and you and your Peeper will be happy... Quote:
Quote:
Hmmmm, this is not normal, and concerns me a little bit... I think what I would do, if confronted with this 'air' Crop thing, is to mix up a Gallon of ACV-Water, and for him, to the tune of Two Tablespoons of raw Apple Cider Vinegar to a Gallon of good quality Water... And use 'that' both for his formula-mixing, and his drinking water, for the next four or five days, and see what goes on from there... When you offer dinking Water, it needs to be 'tepid' also... He may have the beginnings of a Candida or Yeast infestation, either from having got chilled at some point previous, where his Crop process and digestion was slowed, or from the KT in combination with that, if he has not been warm enough at any point since your getting him. The ACV-Water should take care of it, if that is the cause of this 'Air'...and I would start now, and not wait. Best wishes! Phil Las Vegas
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#18
17th September 2006, 07:30 AM
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Thank you for the info. Greatly appreciated.
 Ahh.. yeast. Great.  I don't have any ACV here. I'll go today and get some. Could I use regular vinegar in the meantime or is that a no no? He seems to be filling up with air as he eating.. so yeast never crossed my mind. Poor little guy. I thought it was because of the nipple since he didn't seem to fill with air when I used the syringe. Probably just coincidence. His crop is still emptying at a normal rate also. The day hubby found him he was without his mom to keep him warm all day. He was definitely chilled when got home with him. Another thing.. his poops are semi-formed but there is a fair bit of clear water accompanying them now. I do have some probiotics (yogurt culture stuff) Would that maybe help with that? Ok so mixing for the ACV is 1 or 2 tablespoons per gallon? And I need to use that mix his formula. I haven't been giving him water to drink between meals but will start doing that. Wow this little guy is stressing me out. LOL 
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#19
17th September 2006, 07:43 AM
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Yes, regular ACV will do until you can get the health food store kind. You can just put a tiny drop in the formula.
Yes, a little yoghurt made from culture, or kefir is fine. I have used homemade kefir it on my birds, and their poops are solid in no time. If the bird is getting formula mixed with water, he does not need any water on the side. If he is eating seed, then yes he does.
__________________
Treesa I don't want to gain the whole world, & lose my soul... http://changeourhearts.wordpress.com...-lose-my-soul/  http://community.webshots.com/user/duiven007
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#20
17th September 2006, 07:58 PM
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Since adding the ACV, the probiotics and increasing the temp of the formula he's been eating between 8-10cc's every 3 hours. Depending on how much air is in his crop that I can't get out.
I have to burp him after each nipple full.. so I do think he is swallowing air. He's quite frenzied at feeding time. I'm not really sure how to remedy that.. Any ideas?Yet another question.. I have been keeping the heating pad on low-ish and to me it just felt warm. I found my thermometer today and if it's accurate it's at about 101 degrees. He's not sweaty or panting.. But I'm wondering if that's too warm? It also appears that his pin feathers are going to be coming in soon. I can see black specs. 
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#21
17th September 2006, 10:05 PM
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Hi Raine, He will eat even more, and be even more assetive and eager as he keeps growing...and once he can really 'push' with those Legs... So, you have 'the Tiger by the Tail' now...! Maybe he is just swalling Air somehow...but whether this is it or not, the ACV-Water will be good for him...and if the 'air' was from gasses of Yeasts or Candida staring in, then the ACV-Water should settle those matters nicely. Still go ahead and mix up a definite batch, Just buy one of those Gallon jugs of water at 7-11 or something, and add three Tablespoons of the raw ACV ( "Bragg" being the brand of choice, found at many Groceries in their Health Food sections, or any Health Food Store...) and use this for mixing his Formula...and for in-betwwen-times if offering Water. If his Crop starts feeling firm or like there is a kind of semi-firm 'slug' in it, then offer ( must be "tepid!") Water... His Crop should feel soft and mushy...and here anyway in this more arid clime, their systems will tend to draw off the formula-water from their Crops between meals, so that additional plain drinks of water are needed... Anyway, he is much happeir now, and he is HUNGRY since he has so much growing to do...he will be this way from now on for the nect several weeks...so, his 'frienzy' is a sign of a normal, happy, enthisiastic, growing Peeper... You are doing well...! Quote:
101 degrees sounds fine to me, and should be about right...along with no drafts of course... Their parents body temp is around 105 I believe, so when sitting on him with their under-feathers parted somewhat, he'd be around 101 to 103ish I suppose...so '101' should be very nice indeed...ideal even... Quote:
Isn't he just a joy? Lol... Such wonderful wacky little Creatues... Let him nap in our hand now and then if you are not already, just let him nestle in your palm and fold your fingers softly over him and he will nap...you can even have your 'Hand Nest' against your stomach, inside your shirt, as you sit and watch tee-vee or read or do internet stuff...and he will like that very much. Normally there is mom or dad sitting on them, and normally there is a sibling against him also...and I think they miss it if no one is actually 'there' warming them, or being with them in real tactile ways...being right against them, so 'Hand Nest' works out pretty good that way, as does Hand Nest against one's own naked stomach under one's shirt...and is easy to do if one can be at some calm occupation where one hand can be used for him, and the other hand free... Makes it hard to type though... Good going..! Phil Las Vegas Last edited by pdpbison; 17th September 2006 at 10:12 PM.
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#22
18th September 2006, 07:03 AM
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Thanks again.
The AVC that I got was from the grocery store, I couldn't find any 'raw ACV'. Is the grocery store stuff still effective? I'm finding now that he wants to keep eating even though his crop is full. So he's definitely feeling better.. or I'm finally doing everything right. The probiotics have also helped with his poops, I think. Since they are not so watery now. Good to know 101 is good. And yup no drafts. I keep his 'home' covered with a bath towel and the 'nest' is covered with a paper towel. He's still so tiny but he has grown quite a bit. Here's a couple new pics. 
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#24
18th September 2006, 09:28 AM
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Hi Raines,
Use some old Tee-Shirt material, soft Cotton...rather than paper towells...for his Nest proper... It will be much more comfortable for him, and he will be able to grip it better with his feet, which is important for him. He looks beautiful...! Quite contented and happy...! They always want to be fed more at feeding sessions, even when they are full...so one just has to say, "Oh...it is sleepy time now...time for sleep..." and do a little Hand Nest, and they will just doze off and forget about eating for a while... They might still do some tentative nuzzles or peeps, but they figure it out of course that it is time now for something else... Nice pictures! He still has his little 'Egg Tooth' on the end of his Beak there...which is what they use to press against the inside of the Egg shell when systematically working the shell to fracure it to be able to finally push and open it to get out... If the Vinegar is real ACV, even if cooked and filtered and not 'raw', it will still be effective chemically, but the ideal is the raw kind since it is still living...and has additional properties and benifits over the processed kind. Too, Grocery Stores sell phoney, artificially colored 'White Vinegar' that seems to be Apple Cider Vinegar and is not...so, just stop at some Health Food Store when you get the chance and get the real one..."Bragg" is the brand of choice... Phil Las Vegas Last edited by pdpbison; 18th September 2006 at 09:35 AM.
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#25
18th September 2006, 10:37 AM
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__________________
Treesa I don't want to gain the whole world, & lose my soul... http://changeourhearts.wordpress.com...-lose-my-soul/ http://community.webshots.com/user/duiven007
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#27
18th September 2006, 01:19 PM
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He's so cute. I'm glad things are going smoothly for you, thanks for taking care of him.
__________________
Maryjane A rescuer's work is never done http://picasaweb.google.com/awrats3333 Talk to me, Coo to me, Bow to me, Listen to me. And I'll teach you To fly with me And I will love you Like no other.... 21 Amazing Facts You Didn't Know About Pigeons! (Okay, some of us knew already!)
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#28
19th September 2006, 06:36 AM
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I had a bit of a scare lastnight. His crop wasn't emptying. It appeared to have about 5-6 cc's approximately left in there after 3 hours. The crop felt normal soft and squishy, it just wouldn't empty. It definitely was not air this time. After 6 hours it still was not empty, so I gave him 2cc's of ACV water and massaged the crop for a bit and he was completely empty this morning. What a relief.
So this morning I just gave him a small meal of 5cc's and made the formula a little bit more watery. I'm still waiting to see if it's gone by next feeding. *knock on wood* Just when you think your out of the woods..
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#29
19th September 2006, 10:54 AM
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Hi Raine,
Yea, they will do this, and it is no big deal. Now, if you are JUST feeding 'KT' then their system is not getting to process any roughage or variety. I always mix the 'powder' of whatever brand, with fresh groung Seeds and or small whole Seeds and other things...Nutrical, Fruit syrups, fresh ground dried Berries, some Canary Grit and Sea weed and so on... In Nature, their parents KEEP them 'stuffed' constantly...the Baby's Crop never gets empty and the poops just keep comeing 12/7 of course. The use of powder-water only can make a kind of odd slippery resistant 'slug' in their Crop which when it gives off a certain amount of Water, can sort of stay there without passing as well...so your offering more Water and massaging it a little was the right thing to do I'd say. In Nature their parents are feeding them semi-hydrated small Seeds, bits of Greens, and Water, in a soupy/sloshy mix...and they keep the Baby's Crop topped off so the Baby is always stuffed to the gills... Such wild Babys have Crops so continuously full, their Crop looks like one third or more of their body as they lay there...their heads seem to be poised in the 'middle' of their body in effect. Parent Pigeons of course do not have recourse to powder mixes... So, my regimen is to use the powders for about half to one third of the formula, and the rest, small Seeds, fresh ground Seeds of larger kinds, and other stuff of course. I usually do not start small whole Seeds till the Baby is about 8 or 10 days old or so...and I thenm do so moderately. Anyway, the idea of waiting for their Crop to empty for feeding again, is not how they are in Nature, and I am not sure where the idea came from...but that was what I used to hear one was supposed to do, so I used to do it that way for a long time. I think the worry with that comes from useing the powder-mixes, which for various reasons can promote yeast or candida problems, and so one is always a little nervous about Crop process, and not wanting to feed a Static Crop and so on... The ACV-Water should prevent any Yeats or Candida problems...so...I think it is allright to keep them decently 'full', but I would add some fresh ground real Seeds and other things to the powder to change it's texture and to make it all closer to their Natural diet... And offer Water inbetween times, and of course give a little massage to their Crop if one thinks it is not moveing along as fast as it should or that it has got a sort of 'slug' in it, but never so that any reflux or pressure would make the food come 'up'... Best wishes! Phil Las Vegas Last edited by pdpbison; 19th September 2006 at 10:59 AM.
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#30
19th September 2006, 12:56 PM
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Now that you mention it his crop does feel slightly 'slug' like when it's almost empty. So that's the formula thickening in his crop?
I am feeding only the KT. Since I'm not quite sure how old he is I haven't added anything to it. I do have some small seeds I could grind up. How much should I add? Sorry more questions.  Also what about baby food (applesauce, mashed peas.. etc) could I mix some of that with the KT? Thanks
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