Orphaned 3 day old white homers.

[SabRhund]

To make a long story short, and to get to the advice, two white homer chicks, now four days old, have come into my care.

This entire affair started about two months ago. Our next door neighbor decided to have a backyard wedding, and wanted "doves" released at the wedding. Her new husband had a flock of "racing pigeons", and even though his flock had not been trained in a very long time, he picked two that he thought were up to the job to release at the ceremony.

So the two were released. One of them took off home, and the other made a few laps around the lake before landing on our roof. For the first few days, we were worried about him because we were scared one of our local hawks would get him, seeing as he was roosting on a black roof, and he was a white bird. My grandmother started putting seed on our deck, which is partially covered, and he started coming to our deck to eat, eventually deciding to roost on our ceiling fan at night, which was safer than roosting on our roof. Thank goodness for that.

So life was good for "Pigeon". He had a "deck with a view", all the food he could want, a nice place to roost...but something was missing in his life, apparently, and a week or two later, Pigeon came up missing. We thought for sure that he had been taken down by a hawk, but a little bit of hope still lingered through the 4 or 5 days that he was gone. Pigeon did return, and this time, he brought us his girlfriend, who was much larger than he, and un-banded (Pigeon is double banded, but we can't read his bands for the life of us).

So the lives of Pigeon and "Fat Bird" were very good. But still, something was missing, and we found out exactly what when, this January, Pigeon & Fat Bird set up a nest in our patio chiminea.

Fat Bird laid two eggs and sat on them diligently. Since we didn't know all that much about pigeons, we thought she was crazy for laying in the middle of winter, and thought for sure that the several cold snaps that we endured would kill her egg. But, a few weeks later, (a few days ago), we noticed she had thrown egg shells out of the nest, and discovered her two tiny chicks.

Fat Bird is a really good mother. And, I think, that is what is so frustrating about this entire situation.

Early yesterday morning, before anyone was awake, something terrible happened to our Fat Bird. My grandmother woke up, and saw our local coven of crows all on our deck, and both Pigeon and Fat Bird out of sight. She scared away the crows, and went to the nest to find the two babies, nearly frozen solid. We both believed they were dead, but something provoked her to try to warm them up, and when she put them in a warm washcloth, they started gasping for breath. She put them back in the nest with a disposable back heating pad (air activated) and a washcloth, and called Pigeon back (he comes when you coo), but he and Fat Bird acted as if nothing had happened and refused to go in the nest. The babies were not staying warm enough outside in the cold without their mother, so I brought them back in.

A few minutes later, after the babies were doing much better and peeping and all, I took them outside, showed them to Fat Bird and Pigeon, and put them back inside the nest. Pigeon followed me to the nest, watched me, looked at the babies peeping, and then ran away from the chiminea. We think they are terrified of it now, because of whatever happened with the crows, and Fat Bird is limping badly on one of her legs though it shows no signs of external injury.

So I brought them back in with me again, set them up in an incubator like I've done for my baby cockatiels when forced to hand raise, and left them to warm up fully for a few hours. We had a meeting to be at, and I felt certain that when I returned home, the poor beebs would be dead. I just couldn't fathom their survival after having been so cold for so long. While I was out, I bought more handfeeding supplies and food (Kaytee Exact) just in case.

I returned home to two peeping, wiggling, HUNGRY babies. At first, they didn't have much of a feeding response, and I wasn't able to get much food in them. But after three more feedings yesterday and one feeding early this morning, the babies are eating heartily and are stronger than ever. Their eyes have started to open, but they keep them closed most of the time, and they can wiggle their way around. They have much more control over their heads now than they did even yesterday.

I've done tons of research now on pigeons (wow, they grow fast) and think I'm pretty well armed for the job providing they don't take any sudden turn for the worst or encounter some strange problem that I've never encountered with my cockatiels. But they seem to be doing really really well. I'll have pictures of them later tonight to show you.

Any tips on their raising that is unique to pigeons would be helpful. Like I said, I've done the feeding with cockatiels, so I understand the basics, just not pigeon specifics. Here are some details on their feedings.

Kaytee Exact, 1 part formula, 2.5 parts water, 104-106ºF, 4-5 times daily, as needed (when crop has mostly drained but not completely).

Should I use more or less water in the formula? Is the temperature okay? Should they be fed more, less often? Also, they always peep, even when their crops are full. Is this normal? I think they are making each other peep, because when I move them apart (just to where they aren't touching, but still pretty close to each other) they stop peeping and sleep until I move them again or check their crops. Just any information at all would be awesome. And, I've read around the forums enough to know that you guys love pictures, so, here is my album of Pigeon & Fat Bird. Sorry, no baby pictures yet.

http://pics.livejournal.com/sabr/gallery/00026b84
The 4 albums at the top are of my pet birds, two cockatiels, and two budgies. There are some pictures of some chipping sparrows mixed in with the pigeons pics, those are the pigeons' deck mates. They come to visit and eat the pigeon food.

Thanks for reading.

[Trees Gray]

Hello and Welcome to Pigeon Talk,

Thank you for rescuing these needy little ones.

LOL you bet we love pictures!

Sounds like everything is going fine, just make sure to let the crops empty before feeding and I think the temperature should be just slightly warm, not too hot. How many ml's are you feeding them?

You will need to increase the amount of formula significantly as they will be hitting their growing time soon. Keep the babies warm and out of any air drafts.

Also, when things calm down you might try reuniting the parents once more, they may take up feeding if they feel secure, then again they may not.

I'll have a look at the pics. Can't wait!

[Birdmom4ever]

Wow! It sounds as though you're doing an awesome job. Thank you so much for helping these babies and even trying to reunite them with their parents initially. I loved your pictures. Best of luck with the youngsters and do keep us posted as to their progress.

[Lady Tarheel]

Welcome to the forum.

I enjoyed looking at your pictures and want to commend you for taking care of Pigeon and Fat Bird. It is usually hard for release birds to survive in the wild and your providing them with seed, water and a safer place to stay has made all the difference. I hope Fat Bird's leg turns out to be ok.

From your description of caring for the babies, I think you're doing everything right. Aside from food, to me, warmth is critical and if you have them in an incubator then the temperature should be just right for them.

Could you let us know how many cc's you feed the babies each time? They don't need a great deal of formula per feeding when they're newborn but do need to be fed frequently - as you are doing.

A gram scale would also help you to keep up with their weight gain each day. We usually weigh any newborns we get in at least 2 x day for a while.

[Lovebirds]

Welcome to PT........your pictures are great and the pigeons look so clean and white and healthy.
You couldn't have come to a better place for advice and lots of oohhhs and awwwss..........LOL
We look forward to baby pictures.
I also love you teils. I've got one named Wally and he's quite a character. I've seen babies and would love to raise some, but don't know what in the world I would do with them, so I'll just stick to my little buddy and be content.

[SabRhund]

They are getting about 5-6 cc of food, but I fear their crops are not draining fast enough, or that I am feeding them too much. They act so hungry though, is that normal? Even with a full crop, they cry and respond.

Ideally, how much and how often should 4 day olds be fed? And if they aren't digesting food as quickly as they should, what can I do to get them back on track?

[SabRhund]

Oh, and as for how often. They got fed about every 4-5 hours yesterday, but today, they were fed at 6 am, and it's now 3:30, and their crops have only halfway emptied.

[JGregg]

You might want to try feeding them less food at a time 4-6cc is a lot for a bird that young, especially if their crops are not empty after 4 hrs. Make sure that you are feeding them until their crops are round and squishy, not taunt. The problem you may be running into is curdling in the crop, and in that case I would recommend giving them some water and gently massaging their crops to break the food up, let them digest the food in their crops before feeding further. You may also want to start giving them some lemon yogurt (like less than 1/4 cc once or twice a day if you think the amount is too much give them less) to stave off further curdling (info is from the international dove society). Please don't give them any other dairy products as birds don't digest lactose.

[Lady Tarheel]

There are two things I've found very helpful in feeding newborns. One is yogurt (we use the plain) and a product called Benebac. It is a probiotic and both products really help babies digest their food easier. The following link is an article written by one of our members "Nooti" (Helen) and I found it very helpful when we were raising so many babies last spring.

http://www.internationaldovesociety....eedinghelp.htm

I added some yogurt to every formula mixture I made - I would "guesstimate" about 1/4 tsp for every feeding except one. For that feeding I would add the Benebac powder (they provide a measuring spoon) to the Exact.

The formula does need to be more "watery" than the Exact directions and it can steadily be made thicker as the babies grow.

To make the crop move faster now, try giving them distilled water, lukewarm, about 1/2 cc at a time every hour for about 3 hours and, as JGregg said, very gently massage their crop to loosen up the formula. Then, just before you go to bed, feed them formula.

I will try to check my records to see what amounts I used.

[A_Smith]

http://www.urbanwildlifesociety.org/...j&DuvFeedg.htm
Keep up the good work. Hope this link helps too.
From the website page:
Feed 1cc of very thin formula (eg Kaytee Exact) using 1 part formula to 5 parts water.
Feed 1cc every 2 hours at days 1 - 2
3cc every 3 hours for days 3-4
10-11cc every 5 hours days 5-7, thickening the formula every time.
By day 20 they should be taking 30-40 ml 3 times a day from a 60ml syringe.
Quantities are guidelines only. Crop sizes vary so feed carefully stopping to let the pigeon breathe and to check how full the crop is.

[SabRhund]

Thank you guys so so much. I am learning so many things, and I feel more confident with each bit of knowledge, but the babies can't afford any lost time or mistakes, so the quicker I get this stuff into practice, the better. That syringe idea that you linked me to will work AWESOME, A_Smith. Thank you so much.

I'm going to get them some yogurt, and I already have Benebac, but I need to check to make sure it hasn't expired. Where can you get Benebac if it has indeed expired? I got mine from the vet, but I think you need a perscription.

I'm going to give them some warm water now. I've been massaging their crops every few hours now, and I think they are slowly emptying, it's just taking much too long :/

I'll keep you updated.

[SabRhund]

Okay, so I moved my pigeons into an album of their own, and uploaded some pics of the babies today. They are 5 days old. "Smallish Bird" might be only 4 days old, not sure. "Largish Bird" is starting to push feathers out of his wings and legs.

Do they look okay to you? This picture was taken just after feeding, and I hope their crops are full enough but not too full. They are on 4cc of food every 3 hours like one of the websites I was linked to recommended. Supposedly, they are supposed to be up to 10cc of food every 6 hours tomorrow, but that sounds too fast, so I think maybe I will increase it to 5-6 cc tomorrow, 6-7cc the day after, 7-8, 8-9 etc. Does that sound okay? Or maybe a little faster than that? Their formula is being mixed 1:5 now as the website recommended too, and in the next few days, will gradually be thickened.

The warm water trick and massaging their crops worked beautifully, and their crops were emptied this morning, so no more curdling. They seem to be back on track.

One of my cockatiel raising friends suggest pedialyte mixed with their formula instead of water. They said it kept their crops moving better and better hydration. Ever heard of that?

Anyway, here are the pics. See if you think they look healthy. I think they look a little thin, but it could just be because they are all naked.

Pigeon = cock
Fat Bird = hen
Largish Bird & Smallish Bird = my charges.

http://pics.livejournal.com/sabr/gallery/00063s0e

[Lady Tarheel]

They look so sweet and cuddly. Frankly, they look much like all newborns are supposed to, at least to me. Their crops are not as full as the parents would fill them, but personally, I would rather err on the side of caution than fill them too full. The amounts you are feeding sound pretty good.

I believe you can get Benebac at most any pet store such as Petsmart. We order ours through a group I belong to so I'm not sure where it comes from but it does not require a prescription. You might check in the pet store in the area where reptile products are because it is a product that is used for reptiles too. Even if you can't get it, I think the yogurt will work fine.

I'm really glad the crops went down.

As far as pedialyte is concerned, that can be used but the formula needs to be warm. Don't heat the pedialyte (or formula) in a microwave. If you do anything, mix the formula with the pedialyte, then put hot water in a bowl and set the formula in the bowl of water and stir really well until the formula gets warm enough. You definitely do not want any hot spots because that could cause crop burns.

[SabRhund]

Thanks. Yea, I knew about the microwaved hotspots, so what we do is heat the water in the microwave, then mix the formula with the water vigorously until it cools to 106, then double boiler to keep it warm. By the time the formula is syringed, it has fallen to temperatures that are just slightly warm to the wrist.

I think I will try the benebac first, since it has always worked well for Mieke (my budgie) when she's had to be on antibiotics. I think I worry too much for the babies, but I'm just so scared to lose them. They have been through so much, and I lost a 4 week old 'tiel to crop stasis at one point. Ever since then, I am super cautious about their delicate crops and digestive systems.

But yes, other than that, I think they are doing pretty well. They fight a lot; is that normal!? Smallish Bird bit Largish Bird on the wing earlier today, and I'm sure she didn't hurt him, but if they keep fighting when they get older...well, I might have to separate them before and after feeding until they settle down. They don't fight after they've been fed and have settled down a bit, just right before and after I feed them. They sure are fiesty buggers. I'm sure if anything was really wrong with them, they would be a little less energetic. As long as they are happily eating and very energetic, I think that I don't have to worry so much.

Thanks so much for your advice and help!

Oh, and for an update on the parents. They were very very traumatized by the crow attack, and wouldn't even sit on our deck anymore. We feared, for a time, that they were going to leave us, but they are regaining their confidence bit by bit and coming back "home" to eat more and more. They still come home every night to roost on our ceiling fan. I hope they get back to normal soon. We sure miss them when they are gone.

[Charis]

Beautiful pictures and happy, well cared for birds. A joy to look at.

Sounds like those babies aren't fighting but displaying typical baby pigeon

behavior. When they're being fed they shimmy, shake and squeel. Difficult to

feed at times but totally cute.

Might be a good idea to put a towel or something they can grip, with their

little feet, underneath them so as to avoid splayed leg.

Please keep the wonderful pictures coming. It's fun to eatch them grow into

their beaks!










Keep the pictures coming. It's fun to watch them grow.