Question about air in crop of 5 day old baby

[artschoolgirl]

Hello everyone-

I found what I believe to be a two day old baby pigeon three days ago on the ground at the park. I could not find the nest, so I took it home and started researching online about how to care for it. THANK GOODNESS for this forum!!!! You are an amazing bunch!

I read a LOT of the threads here and have been feeding the baby KT Exact about 5 times per day. At first I was using an eyedropper, but that was not going well (took forever, and the baby had trouble getting the hang of it), so I switched to the syringe/balloon method after reading about it here. Yay! Feedings are so much quicker and more effective! Baby seems perky and active (except for when it's sleeping, of course), its eyes are open and it's pooping regularly. It's growing like mad!

The question I have is regarding the crop. It seems to be emptying of all formula between feedings, but thecrop never gets flat even after all of the formula seems digested. There are no hard lumps or anything like that, so I don't think crop stasis is an issue. I suspected that what was left in the crop was air, but got confirmation of this when I was feeding the baby just now and could see (from the side when backlit) that the formula was sloshing around in the crop - like a balloon filled partway with air and the other part water. My concern is that if there is air in the crop, there is less room for formula. I'm also wondering if this is an indication of a larger problem developing, or if it just got a bunch of air in the crop when we were using the eye dropper for feedings and just has no way of getting the air out.

How can I tell if the air in the crop is from the awkward eye dropper feeding we were doing OR if it's an indication of a more serious problem like canker or candida? It does not seem to be getting worse - it's been there since we were feeding with the eye dropper (which was only on the first day).

Can the bird be manually burped somehow? Is that advisable? Or should it be left alone?

The baby is otherwise quite happy, responsive, growing, pooping and doing all the things I would imagine a baby bird would do. There are no funny smells or anything like that. My mommy instinct tells me that it just got air in there and does not have an effective means for getting it out, but I thought I would run it by you guys because it's bothering me. Heck, I know reading a bunch of posts on a forum does not make me an expert.

Thanks for reading,

Jennifer

[Lovebirds]

Jennifer......just wanted to say.......hold on.......someone will be helping you shortly I'm sure..............thanks for saving the baby by the way. Good luck with it.

[Reti]

You're doing great with the baby, Jennifer. Thank you for rescuing this little sweetie.
Lets hope it is just air in the crop and nothing more serious. From his behavior he seems to be fine.
You can gently massage the crop in between feedings and see if it helps (not right after the feedings, let him first digest most of the food).
Let us know how it goes.

Reti

[Pidgey]

I recently raised one to completion that did the same thing. I finally just stopped worrying about it and fed him on schedule and when he finally got feathered enough to cover it, he started looking pretty normal. I ran a tube all the way down and you'd have thought that that alone would have been like sticking a needle in a balloon but it never did. I've also seen that in chicks in my loft. That's not to say that there isn't a problem, just that if he's eating and pooping just fine, it might not be anything to worry about.

Pidgey

[pdpbison]

Hi artschoolgirl,



Glad you noticed the Crop issue when you did!

...I am sure we/you will be able get it taken care of nicely...


Where are you?

And...

What Species Baby is this do you think?





If it is a Pigeon Baby, it is very common for neophytes to give the Baby a Candida or Yeast infection, and for various reasons which derive from how they are doing things. So, later, when I get back, we can review how you are doing things, and also, how things may be done to make for a happy healthy Baby.

Candida or Yeasts infecting them, can begin in the Crop from feeding mistakes, or from just useing plain KT, and then make for a gassy Crop, or inflated Crop, and if left unchecked, a static Crop finally, which does not empty, as the food still in it continues to spoil and make toxins...this, with a spreading infection, stasis of the digestive system, listlessness and decline, and death.


My regimen for this is to make up some ACV-Water, which in this case, will be -


Three Tablespoons of Raw, Apple Cider Vinegar, into a Gallon of Water...and to use THIS 'Water' then for mixing their formula.


The Baby needs to be kept continuously and adequately "warm", to about one's own 'core' body temperature, or a little more, so HE himself is that temperature through and through...if they get chilled, or chilled and then fed, especially if force fed where the Baby did not even want any, they can get sick then from being internally less than the temperature they need to be to process food, or get Yeast or Candida illness, since the food in their crop starts to spoil, and the organisms of spoilage begin also attacking him, and making toxins, and it all gets worse from there.


Feeding them left over formula from prior feedings can also be bad in this way, unless one observes various guidelines.


Mixing formula with 'hot' tap water is also bad...


Feeding just-mixed formula which has not 'sat' for at least half an hour with plenty of Water before stirring, is also bad...and if not mixed to almost perfect homogenuity, can male little lumps that stick to the inside sides of their Crop and start to fester and spoil there, starting a process of illness or even injury also.

This ( feeding just after mixing, ) can also make a 'slug' of semi-impervious food material which will not pass and can be hard to dissolve then, and is shaped in such a way that it's presence in the Crop may be hard to even detect.


The dry ingredients need an hour almost to absorb what Water they will...so feeding just mixed formula makes the food absorb what water it can while IN the Baby's Crop, and since typically not much water is in there, the food material thickens and gets resistant then to dissolving even when Water is given.



So...

Mix the formula as follows -


Ingredients in a Tea Cup or small Bowl...


Add enough clean "cold" tap Water or bottled Water, or ACV-Water in this case, to cover, and to have maybe 3/8ths of an inch or 1/2 an inch clear ACV-Water on top of the "not stirred" dry and whatever other ingredients. Do not Stirr...just let this sit. Cover it snug with a lid of some sort, and let it sit in the refrigerator.



Then, after it has sat, "stirr" and make sure all is smooth and homogenious, which will be easy to do for having let it sit like that. You can stirr it while warming it.

For which, take a Pan, put 1/2 inch of Water in it, and warm the Water on the Stove.

Do not use a "microwave" oven to warm it.



When the Water is fairly warm, 'hot' to the touch say, take it off the heat, set the cup or little bowl of formula in it, and stirr till all is uniformly warm, so the hot Water is warming the little Cup or Bowl, and the forumla then, should be allowed to be the same "warm" as the underside of your wrist.

If you use a metal Spoon to stirr it, just press the Spoon fresh from stirring onto the underside of your wrist, to see if it is about right.


This then is the 'right' temerature for the formula to be, for feeding it to him.


Similarly, to offer Water between meals for him to drink, make the Water tepid, and guide his Beak into some small warmed container of the Water.



I myself feed them from their inserting their Beaks ( if with initial guidance to do so, ) into the hollow side of a conventionsl soft rubber Baby Bottle Nipple...and this I use also to offer Water. I hold the Nipple like a cup in front of them...at about neck height.


How are you feeding this little one?


And...


How old do you think this Baby is?


More later...!


Got to run..

Phil
Las Vegas

[artschoolgirl]

What an amazing community you are here! Thanks for the rapid response!

I've raised human babies ( ) and done rat rescue in the past, even with a roof rat that was just a few days old. It's been pretty easy to tell with any of the babies I've raised when additional medical intervention was necessary. I don't get the feeling that this is anything serious. My instincts have always proved accurate in the past.

Perhaps all of you could tell me what types of behavioral changes would indicate that there is a serious problem? I would assume crop stasis, lethargy, not gaining weight, etc. But are there any other symptoms specific to birds like the color or consistency of the poop, odd smells, etc?

I feel like maybe watchful waiting is a good approach, but I will need to know what to look for.

Thanks again, you amazing pigeon lovers!

Jennifer

[Victor]

Hi Jennifer, a normal poop should be brown or green in color with some white(urates) in the basic center of it. It should be of "cookie dough" consistency, and not overly smelly. Should not he watery either.

[pdpbison]

Hi Jennifer,



If there is Gas or inflation of the Crop...it IS a "serious problem".


Would you kindly read the prior post I submitted for your issue? Above?


I hate to see it not even noticed...especially when it does contain the information you had asked for.



Best wishes..!


Phil
Las Vegas

[artschoolgirl]

See my responses in bold below.

Originally Posted by pdpbison

Hi artschoolgirl,



Glad you noticed the Crop issue...I am sure you will be able get it taken care of nicely...


Where are you?
I'm in Phoenix
And...

What Species Baby is this do you think?
It's definitely a pigeon - it looks just like the one in the pictures on this forum, which is how I determined that it was about 2 days when I found it.

If it is a Pigeon Baby, it is very common for neophytes to give the Baby a Candida or Yeast infection, and for various reasons which derive fromn how they are doing things. This will make for a gassy Crop, inflated Crop, and if left unchecked, a static Crop which does not empty, a spreading infection, stasis of the digestive system, listlessness and decline, and death.


My regimen for this is to make up some ACV-Water, which in this case, will be -


Three Tablespoons of Raw, Apple Cider Vinegar, into a Gallon of Water...and to use THIS 'Water' then for mixing their formula.
I read about this earlier. Seems simple enough.

The Baby needs to be kept continuously and adequately "warm", to about one's own body temperature, or a little more, so HE hiumself is that temperature through and through...if they get chilled, or chilled and then fed, they can get sick, or get Yeast or Candida illness, since the food in their crop starts to spoil, and the organisms of spoilage begin also attacking him.
I've been keeping him in his box on a heating pad as necessary, but I do live in Phoenix, so this has not been much of an issue. The ambient temperature is usually over 80 degrees.


Feeding them left over formula from prior feedings can also be bad in this way.
Just as with human babies - this is not something I have been doing. Fresh formula every time.


Mixing formula with 'hot' tap water is also bad...
I use freshly boiled distilled water and mix up a new batch at each feeding.

Feedin just-mixed formula which has not 'sat' for at least half an hour with plenty of Water before stirring, is also bad...
Since I boil the water each time, the formula HAS TO sit to cool off before feeding, and I always stir it again before feeding.

This can make a 'slug' of semi-impervious food material which will not pass and can be hard to dissolve then.


How old do you think this Baby is?
I guesstimate that's it's now 5 days old.

More later...!


Got to run..

Phil
Las Vegas

[artschoolgirl]

Phil,

With all due respect, the reply I posted was a general reply to the others that had responded. I was writing my reply to you when I got interrupted and had to tend to my own (human) children.

Sheesh.......

Originally Posted by pdpbison

Hi Jennifer,



If there is Gas or inflation of the Crop...it IS a "serious problem".


Would you kindly read the prior post I submitted for your issue? Above?


I hate to see it not even noticed...especially when it does contain the information you had asked for.



Best wishes..!


Phil
Las Vegas

[artschoolgirl]

The poops are right on target then. I've been keeping a tissue (non lotion variety) under the bird in order to monitor the poops.

Originally Posted by Victor

Hi Jennifer, a normal poop should be brown or green in color with some white(urates) in the basic center of it. It should be of "cookie dough" consistency, and not overly smelly. Should not he watery either.

[Victor]

Great job Jennifer. Between the children and your rescue, you do have your hands full.

[pdpbison]

Hi Jennifer,



Oh...


Okay then...


Best wishes,


Phil
Las Vegas

[feralpigeon]

Hi artschoolgirl, welcome to PT and thanks for rescuing this little baby. The raw ACV is a good way to go for now, and it can help w/a multitude of health issues for the baby. A product such as Bragg's is best for this application as it has the mother in it which has nutrients and inherent probiotics that make up the 'cloudy part' known as the mother which other ACV products may not always contain. Sometimes words lose something in the translation between thought and paper, though a baby's crop is an area of concern. Fortunately, crop issues may work out on their own sometimes, but we truly need to watch crop issues closely. If you have any questions regarding possible acceleration of symptoms, then please check in and share your concerns.

If you have not yet checked inside the babies mouth, please do so and look for the coloration of the tissue there. We are looking for a pinkish coloring w/out any "growths" be they cheesy color or texture or otherwise. Much like for you or I this would definitely be a health concern if observed.... so pink and clear gets good gradings.

Sounds like you have a good handle on things and are keeping a close eye, so once again, thanks for helping this vulnerable little baby.

fp

[artschoolgirl]

I checked inside the baby's mouth and it's a pale dullish pink, all smooth with no apparent growths or discoloration.

And, I'm glad Braggs is the way to go as that's the only ACV I've ever used.

So, theoretically if there IS an issue developing, will the Bragg's help with all possible causes of gas in the crop? Does it work for both canker AND candida?

I'm going to go out after my kids go to bed and pick up a fresh bottle of the raw, organic Braggs ACV and will add it to the water tonight before the first feeding.

Thanks again!

Originally Posted by feralpigeon

Hi artschoolgirl, welcome to PT and thanks for rescuing this little baby. The raw ACV is a good way to go for now, and it can help w/a multitude of health issues for the baby. A product such as Bragg's is best for this application as it has the mother in it which has nutrients and inherent probiotics that make up the 'cloudy part' known as the mother which other ACV products may not always contain. Sometimes words lose something in the translation between thought and paper, though a baby's crop is an area of concern. Fortunately, crop issues may work out on their own sometimes, but we truly need to watch crop issues closely. If you have any questions regarding possible acceleration of symptoms, then please check in and share your concerns.

If you have not yet checked inside the babies mouth, please do so and look for the coloration of the tissue there. We are looking for a pinkish coloring w/out any "growths" be they cheesy color or texture or otherwise. Much like for you or I this would definitely be a health concern if observed.... so pink and clear gets good gradings.

Sounds like you have a good handle on things and are keeping a close eye, so once again, thanks for helping this vulnerable little baby.

fp