Young Woodie, Feeding Advice Needed.

[amyable]

That would be very useful knowing what they eat at what stage. Is the book that Jayne sent you fairly current, if so, if you could let me know what it's called, I'd like to see if I can find it. Thanks.

I'm not actually giving him water on it's own yet, assuming the water in the formula was enough, should I give him any yet?

I've left him with some day light today, so he doesn't think the world is black! I'll have to sort out a plan for him as he developes, ( I know where I won't be taking him.... the place I took him away from!).

Thanks as always.

[cyro51]

Hi Janet,

He will need natural daylight to synthesise calcium and Vitamin D3 for healthy bones.

The book Jayne sent is a 1965 New Naturalist one, very rare and collectable.

Cynthia

[amyable]

Hi All,

Thought I'd update on Monkie's development to make sure I'm doing right by him. I only re-named him yesterday, he used to be called 'Hoodie' in the early days, as he was a bit of a ruffian, but then he calmed down and has become a real sweetie. He looks like a old fashioned monk. He has feathers at the front of his head and round his neck, but the top is still bald! Hence the name.

I reckon he's about 22 days old now, and weighs 250 grms. He has started to self regulate his own feeding now, I wondered if this was normal and possibly because he's getting ready to wean. By self regulate I mean he's very keen when I first give him the Kaytee, but after taking about 15/20 grms, he pulls his own beak out and refuses to have any more. At one time I would have to force him to have a break as he would almost gobble it all down in one go and still look for more. He is trying to peck at seeds on the ground, but not managing to eat any as yet, as he usually drops them again. He wouldn't survive by feeding himself yet.
Should he still be given Kaytee at this age? I'm not sure when Woodies start to self feed. I do remember Cynthia saying they are slower at doing this.

He spends a lot of time preening himself, (a bit of a poser!). He is also trying out his wings, doesn't get off the ground but has a really good flap.

Today I had a few regular Woodies on the patio using the bird bath, so I put Monkie on the window sill so he could see them. His eyes nearly popped out of his head, and the Woodies also noticed him and watched each other for a short while.

This afternoon I fixed up an outdoor enclosure for him and took him out in the garden while I was cutting back some trees. He really seemed to enjoy it. He pottered about pecking at the seeds and leaves that I put around the cage. He was looking up at the top of the oak trees where there were a few Woodies coming and going. He also went straight over and sat on a perch for the first time. Later I gave him some free time on the lawn to see what he would do. He pottered off and explored under the bushes and used his wings to climb up on top of some rubbish bags, so he seems to be coming on well.

The main problem we have is that he his so used to me, and clambers onto my hand, and isn't phased by my presence. It's going to be so hard to say goodbye, but I know he has to learn to be a free bird some day. Just hope I can find him some Woodies who can teach him how to be a 'Woodie' before he's finally released!

Do I carry on topping him up with Kaytee as I have been until he's eating by himself properly, and should he stay indoors for a while longer?

Anyway, that's where we are at present, any advice as to how to carry on from here appreciated as always.

Janet

[cyro51]

Hi Janet,

Thanks for the update!

I carried on topping Valiant up even when he was in the doviary. After he started to eat by himself his wing waggling gradually decreased and then stopped altogether. He has also distanced himself from me now, he isn't quite as frightened as the other pigeons but he doesn't come to me.

Cynthia

[amyable]

Hi,

Today his feeding has altered a bit more. He must have been hungry this morning as usual, but didn't nuzzle and more or less refused to eat his Kaytee altogether. I put his beak in the syringe and he took 5 mls and went and hid in the corner of his box. I managed to get another 5ml down and gave up.

I think he enjoyed his time outside yesterday and having a good flap with his wings, as last night he actually flapped and got on top of his box. Today he just kept peering out of the top longingly, so I've put him out in the garden again to soak up some Vitamin D while the sun shines!!

I've just tried him with a syringe again as I thought he must be really hungry by now. He kept nibbling a bit at a time with the end of his beak. He is pecking at the seeds but still doesn't manage to get them down his throat so I know he isn't getting any nourishment from that yet! Just don't want to lose the weight he's gained to date as he hadn't increased today.

One other thing, is he too young to stay outside in a shed overnight ?

Thanks again,

Janet

[cyro51]

HI Janet,

He will be all right in the shed as long as his accommodation is secure against rats, cats, weasles and any other predators.

When one of my young ones was still learning to eat I started putting maize inside his mouth so that he would swallow it, but before doing so I held the grain up to show him what he would be swallowing. He was self feeding very quickly after that!

Cynthia

[amyable]

Hi again,

I've just been putting some seeds in the front of his beak, and he swallows them fine. He needs to fine tune getting them into his mouth once he's picked them up, that's the bit he hasn't mastered yet, instead of flicking them which sends them shooting out sideways! I suppose he'll get there in the end.
He's not got all his feathers yet, still has bare patches under his wings and on his neck so that's why I wasn't sure if he should be outside. Unfortunately we do have a rat problem at the moment, and I can see where one has been burrowing under one of the sheds. I'd put him in his cage in there but they might squeeze between the bars, so perhaps not. He'll have to put up with his box as I can't bring the cage in the house.

Thanks Cynthia, I hope you don't mind me picking your brain!

Janet

[pdpbison]

Hi Janet,



If a Peeper or Squeaker is not enthusiastically eating his formula, it is almost always because he does not like the formula, and after the initial blush of desperate eating for a day or two, where he was willing to compromise out os desperation, he will then merely taste it and refuse it, unless he the formula is definitely agreeable to him.


Plain K-T seems to often invite this reaction after a little while...and not having the formula the right consistancy and temperature, definitely will.

Formula needs to be quite watery/soupy...and needs to be as close as possible to his own Body Temperature...and made fresh each day, being refrigerated, covered, to be heated in a pan of Water, for each meal.


Mixing formula extempore for each meal, useing hot tap water and a fast stirr to do it, and not letting it hydrate, invites several liabilitys or even very real dangers to the Baby, which I feel are best avoided.


How one keeps correctly 'soupy' formula in the barell of a Syringe with a perforated diaphram on the end, without it leaking out, I do not know, unless one keeps it tilted with the diaphram end 'up'.


There is no way we can feed them as perfectly as their parents would have..!


Lol...

But, we can reduce the variables which are known to adversely effect their enthusiasm, and, we can enhance those variables which are known to promote it.


I myself use the hollow side of a conventional people-baby Nipple, or Teat, and into the Hollow side, I put the formula, and they then insert their Beak into it, and eat.

I make formula useing some 'Hagens' (K-T is fine too, but just make sure it is new, fresh, and has been continuously refrigerated or it will be racid and bad tasteing to the Bird) powder Baby Bird food mix, and to it, I add fresh ground Seeds and dried Berrys, Nutrical, Malt, and whatever else...adding small whole Seeds to the formula also once the Baby is more than a week old.


No one has turned their Beak up to this, and, Dove and Pigeon Babys alike have always shown enthusiasm and assertiveness come chow time.


Woodies, more than regular Pigeons, should have a diet consisting of not merely of Seeds, but of small fruiting bodys, buds, small Berrys, and fresh Greens, also.

Small dried Berrys and some fresh Greens can be ground into coarse powder or fine, along with the Seeds, in any small counter top kind of Coffee Grinder, and to this one adds some powder formula 'K-T' or kindred stuff, and this then is the dry mix, one takes some of, to add Water to, and to hydrate for an hour or more, or overnight even, for their Day's formula.


I use about the same things for regular Pigeon Babys as I would for a Woodie, anyway, in making their formulas.



Hope this helps...!


Best wishes,


Phil
Las Vegas

[amyable]

Hi Phil,

Thanks for all your info. I've had another bad day with his feeding, he really refuses the formula but isn't progressing with seed eating yet, although he spends ages trying! It's interesting what you say about this happening. It hadn't crossed my mind that even when hungry they'd refuse to eat.

It's worrying when I see how empty his crop is and he hardly takes enough to make much difference.

I've been mixing it and keeping it in the fridge after seeing you mention this on someone elses thread in the past. For about five days now I've mixed in some crushed sunflower hearts, that went down ok in the beginning. I also have some small canary seeds I put in aswell.

You know you're right, it isn't easy filling the syringe when the mix is coming out of the other end!!! It is possible though, it's a matter of balance. Usually on my early feed, when I'm half asleep, I end up tipping it too far one way and it pours out the other end. You'd laugh if you could see me when there is air in the syringe, and I push the plunger in, many a time I've ended up spraying the walls as it shoots out!!!!

Anyway tonight I tried some greens as you'd mentioned that. I hope this was alright, I mixed some soaked canary seeds and chopped up spinach with a small amount of Kaytee. I've got to say that went down a treat, he really guzzled that. I was worried about filling him up with too much seed, so I tried to get hime to take the remainder of the Kaytee, and he refused again. So it looks like it is the formula he's fed up with. I'll try that again before bed and see how it goes.

I've had so many Woodies in my garden this last week, I counted twenty two in an oak tree in the middle of the garden at one time today. They are going mad for something up there. I wish I knew what it was, I'd climb up and get it if I thought he'd eat it.

So thanks for the info, It certainly helped this evening.

Janet

[amyable]

Hi Phil,

Thanks for all your info. I've had another bad day with his feeding, he really refuses the formula but isn't progressing with seed eating yet, although he spends ages trying! It's interesting what you say about this happening. It hadn't crossed my mind that even when hungry they'd refuse to eat.

It's worrying when I see how empty his crop is and he hardly takes enough to make much difference.

I've been mixing it and keeping it in the fridge after seeing you mention this on someone elses thread in the past. For about five days now I've mixed in some crushed sunflower hearts, that went down ok in the beginning. I also have some small canary seeds I put in aswell.

You know you're right, it isn't easy filling the syringe when the mix is coming out of the other end!!! It is possible though, it's a matter of balance. Usually on my early feed, when I'm half asleep, I end up tipping it too far one way and it pours out the other end. You'd laugh if you could see me when there is air in the syringe, and I push the plunger in, many a time I've ended up spraying the walls as it shoots out!!!!

Anyway tonight I tried some greens as you'd mentioned that. I hope this was alright, I mixed some soaked canary seeds and chopped up spinach with a small amount of Kaytee. I've got to say that went down a treat, he really guzzled that. I was worried about filling him up with too much seed, so I tried to get hime to take the remainder of the Kaytee, and he refused again. So it looks like it is the formula he's fed up with. I'll try that again before bed and see how it goes.

I've had so many Woodies in my garden this last week, I counted twenty two in an oak tree in the middle of the garden at one time today. They are going mad for something up there. I wish I knew what it was, I'd climb up and get it if I thought he'd eat it.

So thanks for the info, It certainly helped this evening.

Janet

[cyro51]

I've been mixing it and keeping it in the fridge after seeing you mention this on someone elses thread in the past.

Janet, Kaytee must always be made up fresh before feeding. Anything left over must be discarded.

The manufacturers instructions are to boil water and let it cool to the correct temperature, mix it and let it rest for a minute before feeding, discard the rest. It goes off very quickly.

We have found that pigeons refuse their food if it is not warm enough. It should be 39 degrees.

At this age it should be mixed to the consistency of Ketchup.

Cynthia

[cyro51]

I've had so many Woodies in my garden this last week, I counted twenty two in an oak tree in the middle of the garden at one time today. They are going mad for something up there

Do you have beech trees? A friend of mine says they are even going into his garden to eat the beech cobs.

They eat acorns, too.

Cynthia

[amyable]

We are surrounded by oak and yews. It may be the acorns then as I saw Jays in there aswell and they eat acorns.

I put Monkie out in his cage under the oak today so he could watch the activity. The Woodies on the ground gave him a wide berth which was a shame. If only they would take him under their wing, (excuse the pun), it would be ideal at present with so many around to learn from them. He did have a go at an acorn himself when one fell into his cage.

Janet

[amyable]

I initially did mix it with boiling water and let it cool, then I saw a thread that mentioned they mixed it with hot tap water. The packet just says to mix with hot water I think, so I've changed about somewhat. I'll revert to the beginning.

He always has it at the same temperature and like a ketchup consistency, so I'm at a loss as to what the problem is. I'll be glad when he gets the hang of getting the seeds in his mouth. I do hand feed him a few so he might cotton on.

I guess he's a fussy eater.

Janet

[Lady Tarheel]

Hi Janet

Sounds like you're doing a great job with your little woodie. Wish we had them here.

I can't give any advice about what to feed a woodie since I've never cared for one but I can tell you about how we use Exact.

We never, ever, refrigerate Exact that has been made up to feed a pigeon. It is really unnecessary and could be detrimental to the pigeon's health. It should be made fresh with each use. Matter of fact, if we have several babies at one time, each baby gets a fresh batch made just for them. I measure out the Exact and put it in a small container, then run regular tap water just as hot as it will get and start pouring it into the Exact, little by little, stirring constantly, until it gets to the right consistency. The consistency always depends on the bird's age and condition. For very young ones it is more watery and then thickens as they grow. We used to boil water and I even went through 2 thermometers trying to get it to the right temperature. The rehabber who trained us said we really didn't need to do all that and since then we use hot tap water. Since we keep our Exact in the freezer, the coldness of it offsets the extremely hot water and by the time I have stirred it for a couple of minutes it is still warm enough to use.

Exact does thicken a lot but you just keep adding the hot water and within a couple of minutes it gets to the right consistency.

We have had no problems using Exact this way for many years. I love the stuff!

Do you think it would help to make it less watery now that he is growing? That may be part of the problem.