Young Woodie, Feeding Advice Needed.

[amyable]

I've just taken on a young wood pigeon today that someone had found. I've not actually hand reared a pigeon before, and although I've read posts in the past just out of interest, never thought I'd end up doing it myself. I apologise in advance as I know I'm asking things that there are probably already in various threads, but I need to get on with feeding this little one urgently as he seems to be starving and can't stop now to hunt for the info.

I have been lucky enough to get some Kaytee Exact just now, as I remember seeing this mentioned.These are my immediate queries:

1. How much should I feed him, and should it be runny or what type of
consistency do I need to make it?
2. How often.
3. Is it safer to use a syringe or let him feed from a tube. He does keep
forcing his beak between my fingers trying to feed as he would from his
mum. (I was a little scared of this after reading about the poor little dove
that expirated on Exact when feeding.
If using a syringe, do you put the food right to the back of his throat or
just in his mouth and let him swallow. I'm nervous of doing the same.
4. How about drinking. Would he be able to drink yet if I put his beak in
water, or should I not try this yet?
I did give him some defrosted sweet corn and he swallowed that well.

I just want to get him comfortable and fed before going to bed.
I'm going to post this now, but have to go out for a moment to pick my
daughter up, and will come back on when I get back to see if anyone can
help me tonight. (just didn't want you to think I'd disappeared!).

Thanks,

Janet.

[John_D]

Hi Janet,

I would say the only time there's a problem with using the cut-off syringe or tube that they can stick their beaks in, is when they aren't carefully monitored so the beak is disengaged frequently and they come up for air. They - any pigeons - tend to get formula all over their beaks and faces, so if they are stuck into it for too long then their nostrils can become clogged and there is the danger of them breathing in mixture.

The defrosted corn and peas is fine as a temporary measure, as would be little balls of moistened day old wholemeal bread, just to get some nourishment in him.

Unfortunately, I think Cynthia has retired for the night (now she may prove me wrong!) and she would be better able to say how much water to mix with the Kaytee. I'd say it needs to be thin enough that it kinda slopped about in a bowl, rather than being a thick immovable mass, but not just a liquid. Actually, anyone who has used a rearing formula can advise on that, I'm sure.

Try for 20 - 30 ml for now, to tide him over till tomorrow

You'd get a bit messy, but you could give him globs of Kaytee mix by hand, too.

How much, how often would depend on the approx age of the woodie - whether it's still just a baby or if it is a good couple of weeks or more old. If it eats the corn OK, I guess it's a youngster rather than a fuzzy baby.

No harm in dipping his beak, well below the nostrils,
though if he has formula, that would give him the necessary water content.

John

[amyable]

Hi John,

Yes I gathered it would be too late tonight to catch Cynthia. Thank you very much for your help, it will get him through the night and I can try and locate some relevant threads and read up more tomorrow.

Thanks again,

Janet

[John_D]

Hi,

Just before I toddle off to bed too (early start), the amount I mentioned would be for a growing youngster - if it's a real baby, then he'd not take so much (if you feed from an open container, then they tend to waste a lot anyway).

John

[Feefo]

Hi Janet,

Sorry I am so late, I have only just logged on.

His eagerness to eat from your fingers would make him a good candidate for the syringe and balloon method of feeding, the food must be 39 degrees celcius and you have to stop feeding a few times during the meal.

The thickness of the Kaytee depends very much on how old the baby is. You start off with a very thin mixture and build up to the consistency of Ketchup.

The quantity that you feed also depends on age. When the feeding ends the crop should be visibly larger than it was and squishy. Let it rest frequently while you feed it, so the food will go down.

If you have the Kaytee container or packet that gives mixing instructions. It is a good idea to have some baby food stewed apple to hand just in case he developes slow crop.

I think that I started Valiant off with 5ml feeds 4 times a day, which I think was too little, then built up to 10, 15, 20 25 , then to 30 and 35 (although Helen says never to feed a woodie over 30 mls a day). Weigh him every day to ensure that he is thriving. Once he was fully grown I cut down the number of feeds. I will add a photo of him when he arrived as reference. In that photo you can see that there is food in his crop, but he could probably have done with just a bit more.

The link below is to a thread about a baby wood pigeon that didn't grow because he was being fed so little (about 4ml a day). If you scroll down to post 49 there is a photo of him with his crop full after the feeding had been increased by using the syringe and balloon method.

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showth...referrerid=560

The rest of the questions are difficult to answer withou an approxmate size. Because he is nuzzling your fingers I assume he is very young.

If you syringe feed put the food into the very fron of hos lower beak, so he tastes it and swallows it naturally.

Another alternative that I have used isn dipping wholemeal brown bread into Kaytee Exact and putting that into the pigeon's mouth.

Wood pigeons grow very quickly if they receive enough food. Too little food slows their growth down.

Cynthia

[amyable]

Hi Cynthia,

Thanks for your post, it is a great help. I've just spent a couple of hours studying the threads. I 'm glad I found your pictures about the syringe and ballon method, having seen it mentioned in the past I was wondering what the heck I was supposed to do with a balloon! I'm going to try that tomorrow as he just wants to feed that way. I have managed to put food in his mouth with the small syringe but he's stubborn and when I go to do it he puts his head down hard on his chest to make it as difficult as possible! I also used the baby teat, but he pushes his head in so hard and covers his face in formula, I'm scared he'll aspirate.

I popped into our vets today and they gave me three syringes to try. Having looked at the pictures I see it's the very large one you are using which luckily is the same as one of these. Does it depend on how big the bird is as to what size syringe you use?

The bird is about 14 days old, judging by pictures. He weighs 160 grms, and is very very lively and noisey.

I'm keeping him in a cardboard box with newspaper and paper towels, and keeping him warm by using the 'microwaved rice in sock' method as I don't have a heat pad. I keep him quiet and in the dark inbetween feeds, is this ok, or is there anything else I should be doing at this stage?

Based on his age and weight can you give me a rough idea how much and how often I should be feeding him now.

Sorry to ask so much, I really want to do my best for him as it's my first baby pigeon.

Grateful for any advice

Janet

[Feefo]

Hi Janet,

As far as I remember it was a 20ml syringe that I used for the syringe and balloon method.

They always get their faces covered in food. You have to stop and clean them regularly. Unfortunately there is always a risk of aspiration, but the syringe and balloon method is less dangerous than the tube method.

I wish I was able to tell you exacly how much you should be feeding now, but I am just not that organised...whenever I get a new pigeon I tend to behave like a new rescuer, watching its crop to determine whether it has had enough food. I tube fed Valiant and after a while he would regurgitate and if I looked in his mouth I would see the food brimming at the back of his throat. I thought I had fed enough or too much but later I found that if I waited a while for the food to go down he could take more. So I am afraid that you will have to play it by ear. But keep notes, your records will help someone else down the line. This year the majority of our UK pigeon talk rescues have been woodies or collared doves.

You are right to keep him quiet between feeds, but I think that you can "wean" him off the heated sock now as he should be able to thermoregulate at 14 days. That is about the time that the parents stp sitting on them at night...nevertheless I pit a blanket or a towel round the cage to keep them protected form cold drafts.

Cynthia

[amyable]

Hi,

Can I just ask about the Slow Crop that was mentioned earlier. Is it ,as it sounds if the crop doesn't empty. I don't think that is happening but I just want to know what to look out for, and what to give him if it does. I'll get some stewed apple as suggested, is that fed by itself or mixed in with the formula?

I also bought something called Pro C Probiotic powder the other day from the pet shop. Do you know anything about this product and does it hurt to mix some in with the formula each feed. Or is it some thing that only should be used if the bird is showing a particular problem?

I feel like a new mum again, doesn't exactly come naturally with a pigeon, (not that it did with children thinking about it!), so apologies for all the questions!

I'll let you know how I get on with the 'balloon'.

Janet.

( Just spotted a rat outside my back door eating the bird seed I put down. I started putting it there instead of the garden the other day as I found a bunch of Woodie feathers where I fed before, the evil neighbourhood cat must have been around. Need to address that problem now)

[Feefo]

Hi Janet,

I am not well up on probiotics, what does the container advise?

A pigeon's crop should empty completely over night, if it doesn't it will have slow crop. You will be able to feel the food in the crop. When that happens it important not to give him more food because it will just sit on what is already there, the food will rot in the crop and the pigeon will become ill.

You can give him warm water with a tiny pinch of bicarbonate of soda and unless the crop is more than half full rub it very gently to get the food moving. Otherwise just give a teaspoon of plain apple sauce used for babies...that is what Kaytee recommends. Oh, yes, if that happens make certain that his living accommodation is warm and let him rest his breast on something warm. And treat with Spartrix.

It is possible to bleed a bird's crop if sour crop develops, but it is dangerous as they can aspirate the food then. I had to do it for Silly Billy Squeaker because he was so ill, there seemed no other way of making him well again. Fortunately the water had gone into the system so the crop contents were rather thick and I was able to ease them out.

Once you have heard about slow crop you can panic yourself that a bird has developed the condition, worry about what you are feeling etc...but when it really happens there will be no doubt about it.

Cynthia

[amyable]

Hi again,

The Pro-C Probiotic container says, 'friendly bacteria and soluable fibre, with vitamin C and glucose for digestive support.'

It also says, (obviously their spin), it is particularly valuable when a bird is undergoing stress or vetinary treatment for short term illness. Supports birds with long term chronic conditions and old birds. Put either in drinking water or sprinkle on food. I got it just to keep on standby, as I had read several times in threads to give pro-biotic powder or yoghort for certain gut conditions. Not to worry, if I get a problem I'll be on here like a shot anyway.

As far as Slow Crop goes, I'm wondering if I saw a fatal case of that yesterday now you've described it. I had a very bad day at the shelter yesterday. Two days ago I had noticed that one of their rabbits was looking very poorly and offered to take it to the vets, but they said they'd deal with it. So that made me go in again yesterday to see how it was, but it had died, and two others looked the same. Turns out they have got Mixamatosis, (if that's how it's spelt). Not being able to do anything for them is terrible.

I then found a juvenile Woodie lying dead in the aviary. It came in about two weeks ago. When I picked it up, apart from flies on it , I noticed a very hard lump on it's chest. I squeezed it and it was a hard mass of corn seeds. It thought it looked like a growth on the outside of it's skin, as when I eased it off it left raw skin underneath. The bird was alive when I went in two days ago, so I don't know what it really died from. Now I wonder if it was something to do with it's crop as it had seed in it.

Two new juvenlie Woodies in aswell. One was coughing up blood two days ago, doesn't seem to have done it since, but I will keep an eye out for it and check what can be done if it continues. They've had a bad week there really.

Anyway, must go and feed my little chap, will have to think of a name soon, I'm just trying not get too attached,-----some hope!

Janet.

[Feefo]

Hi Janet,

Sprinkle a bit of probiotic in its water daily, it is a good idea to promote healthy bacteria.

If the seed was outside the crop then it sounds more like a ruptured crop that wasn't treated. The injury might not have been all that evident when he arrived, but the crop contents, including water, would have leaked into the area between the crop and the skin and also out of the body. I took a collared dove with a ruptured crop to a vet three times before he agreed with me that that was the problem...he couldn't very well disagree as by that time there were black sunflower seeds poking through the poor things chest!

I am sorry about the rabbits. I don't know how to spell it but this year I have seen lots of dogs on the walk carrying dead rabbits. I thought that the owners were letting their dogs kill rabbits but I was told they were dying of that disease and the dogs picked up the bodies. Very sad!

Cynthia

[amyable]

Well, looks like I'm getting the hang of this feeding a bit better now. He had put on 1.5 grams since yesterday and I'm giving him 20/25mls of Kaytee four times a day. So hope this is means he's doing ok as he's gaining, I'll weigh him again tomorrow same time.

I've now got the hang of the syringe/ balloon, (only problem was I didn't have any balloons in the house), so used material as I'd seen that on a thread. He absolutely loves feeding this way. I have to force him to stop for a breather, as he's so desperate he'd drain the syringe in two seconds flat.

I have to laugh at his eyes when he's feeding, they roll as if he's in absolute bliss, even when his crop is full he nuzzle into anything. It's almost like a comfort thing, the equivalent of a child's dummy/comforter, he jams his beak into an airhole in his box and sits there with his beak through the hole.

Do pigeons normally keep on nuzzling and squeeking even when their crop is full? he acts as if he's still hungry, but he'd burst if I kept filling him up!
I've only hand fed a black bird and magpie previously, and they gape when they want to feed, and turn away when they've had enough, so you can't over feed them. Just don't want him to be hungry.

Thanks for the advice to date.

Janet

[Feefo]

Hi Janet,

You are doing well! Yes, even when they are full baby pigeons will ask for more. In nature the parents only have so much to give them.

I never used the balloon either, I felt more comfortable with a support bandage from Boots!

Cynthia

[amyable]

Hi, Just wanted to check a couple of things out regarding the babies progress.

Yesterday he had gone up to 225grms from the 150grms he was when I first weighed him two days. He is a bit quieter now and I wasn't sure if this was to be expected. He only squeals now once I get him out to feed, whereas before, if I made any noise by his box he'd be squealing frantically. He had the same amount to eat yesterday but has not put any weight on today.

He's pooping lots, brown and white/cream. Being on paper towel it is fairly moist, well not hard like an adult bird. I assume this is ok as the feed is soft and mixed with water, as opposed to seed eater's poop.

When should I introduce any new food, ie: mix seed in with the Kaytee , or is he ok on just the formula for a while?

Sorry, another question. Should he have a view of the outside world at two weeks old? I'm still keeping him in a box in my airing cupboard out of my dogs reach. I'm worried he may not know what the outside world is and may be frightened when suddenly face with it one day. I don't have any aviaries or other birds to mix with, only the garden birds he could see from a window, so could rig up a suitable box during the day if you think it's important.

Advice very much appreciated,

Janet

[Feefo]

Hi Janet,

Valiants poops were always on the runny side, I think that we probably feed them more water than they need but that is better than letting them have too little water. He also grew quieter as he grew older, but I can't remember when that was. Once he was feeding himself he would just give a chirrup and a tiny wing movement when he saw me.

You can start adding a bit of small seed to his feed now.

Jayne very kindly sent me a book that is all about wood pigeons so I will have a read of that and let you know what a wild woodie would be eating at this stage and later stages.

He will have to go into an aviary before release, to learn to be wary of humans, imitate other wood pigeons and acclimatise himself to outdoor life. You could let him look out of the window but it is not essential at this stage.

Cynthia