Shame Of Pennsylvania

[Jay3]

Originally Posted by Teresa

I have left a message in the link supplied by Lilito. Please add your voices, let's overwhelm them!
Remember, though, that content is moderated, so diplomacy is a must.

I also left a message, and was as diplomatic as possible for me, on this subject.

[Lilito54]

Only a Few Days Left to Protect Puppies and Pigeons in Pennsylvania

The Pennsylvania state legislature is about to adjourn and two important bills are still awaiting action.

Legislation (H.B. 2525) to crack down on puppy mills in Pennsylvania passed the House of Representatives last week! This was an historic victory in the "puppy mill capital of the east." H.B. 2525 will overhaul Pennsylvania's Dog Law and impose stronger animal welfare standards for puppy mills. This bill needs to pass the Senate before the legislature adjourns.

Legislation to stop pigeon shoots is also awaiting action in the legislature. This legislation has been amended on to several related bills that are scheduled to receive a vote in the House of Representatives. The opposition continues to be vigilant against our efforts, so it is critical to keep up the pressure. The Majority Leader of the House, Representative William DeWeese, has the power to bring the pigeon shoot amendments up for a vote, so he needs to hear from Pennsylvanians who support this legislation.

TAKE ACTION
1. Please make a brief, polite phone call to your state senator, Michael Stack, at (717) 787-9608 to urge support for H.B. 2525 to overhaul the Dog Law and give stronger protections for dogs in breeding facilities. After making your call, please send a follow-up email to Senator Stack in support of H.B. 2525. If you can't call, be sure to send an e-mail.

2. Please make a brief, polite phone call to Rep. DeWeese, Majority Leader of the House, at (724) 627-8683 to urge him to support the pigeon shoot amendments and use his leadership role to bring the amendments up for a vote. When you call, you can say:

"Hello, my name is [your name] and I'm calling from [your town] to ask Representative DeWeese to support Representative Leach's efforts to amend a Title 18 bill to ban the shooting of trap-released or tethered animals for target practice. I urge him to give these amendments a vote. It’s time to finally prohibit pigeon shoots in Pennsylvania. Thank you." If you can't call, please send an e-mail or fax ASAP to: E-Mail: Click here to contact Member
http://www.pahouse.com/Deweese/contact.asp

Hon. H. William DeWeese
222 Elm Drive
Suite 101, P.O. Box 832
Waynesburg, PA 15370
(724) 627-8683
Fax: (724) 627-6043

Hon. H. William DeWeese
110 Main Capitol Building
PO Box 202050
Harrisburg, PA 17120-2050
(717) 783-3797
Fax: (717) 772-3605

[risingstarfans]

Originally Posted by SmithFamilyLoft

This footage is of course very graphic and designed to get a response out of you in terms of a donation. To the best of my knowlege, this is very old footage from events of long ago. Public outrage from events such as the "Higgins Pigeon Shoot", caused so much outrage that no such event has been held since.

This site leads one to think that these events still occur, and that the site was some how involved in putting an end to such practices. I suspect that the operator simply has collected this footage and now hopes to profit from it, by your donations.

My only suggestion is "Donator Beware". Now if someone has advance information of such an event to take place, then that information would be worth something, as local news organizations and the Pa. SPCA would like to know about it. Simply collecting old news footage of such events and then trying to profit from it, may or may not be something that one should support.

Some of this footage was carried on local news channels, the sourse may have been undercover SPCA agents, and hopefully such events are now only part of a sad history.

I am aware of the source of the footage, and you are right, it is an attempt to get donations for the Humane Society of the United States and People bor the Ethical Treatment of Animals. Both of these groups are radical vegans whose true agenda is the abolishment of the keeping and use of any animals whether as food, fur or family pets. Or even as a hobby. Do not confuse the HSUS with the real Humane Society founded over 120 years ago that do good works....

[Teresa]

Originally Posted by risingstarfans

I am aware of the source of the footage, and you are right, it is an attempt to get donations for the Humane Society of the United States and People bor the Ethical Treatment of Animals. Both of these groups are radical vegans whose true agenda is the abolishment of the keeping and use of any animals whether as food, fur or family pets. Or even as a hobby. Do not confuse the HSUS with the real Humane Society founded over 120 years ago that do good works....

Meaning...?

Personally, I don't find vegans scary, though I'm not one.
I prefer furs that walk around on their own legs.
If anybody tells me that I can't keep a pet that is perfectly happy and safe in captivity, I take no notice.
If anybody asks me for money, I am not obliged to give it to them.
So... no problem!

The only thing that worries me is that you didn't repudiate the cruelty reported. Do you think it's a hoax?

[karijo]

Originally Posted by risingstarfans

I am aware of the source of the footage, and you are right, it is an attempt to get donations for the Humane Society of the United States and People bor the Ethical Treatment of Animals. Both of these groups are radical vegans whose true agenda is the abolishment of the keeping and use of any animals whether as food, fur or family pets. Or even as a hobby. Do not confuse the HSUS with the real Humane Society founded over 120 years ago that do good works....

I'm a "radical vegan", member of both PETA and HSUS, life-long animal rights activist... and yet I lack the "true agenda" you speak of.

I don't think it's any shock that these organizations are against animal cruelty, torture, suffering, and senseless slaughter. Truth is, they have done so much good - look at the welfare laws passed in our time now protecting lab animals, puppy mill dogs, farm animals, pet trade animals, and domestic pets from torture and suffering. Have they stopped these things entirely? No. Have they made a difference in how we use the animals we use? Absolutely. Come on, you keep pigeons, surely you must love animals. Take some time to get to know the good these organizations do, even if you don't agree with all of it, surely you can appreciate some of the good... These guys aren't in the same league as some of the truly radical groups out there - if you call PETA radical, my gosh, you have no idea. The A.L.F is radical. PETA doesn't blow up buildings, break into labs, send threats... PETA is all about education, petitioning, lobbying, demonstrations, and pamphlets.

I think these and other organizations have made great progress in animal welfare in my lifetime. You have to understand that they truly embrace an educational stance, whether or not people agree with or like what they have to say is another story entirely. But as to be expected, there are always opposing viewpoints. And also, as to be expected, there are always going to be extremists carrying on under the name of PETA, HSUS, or any other organization, whether or not their behavior is approved, supported, endorsed, or even known about. Does that make sense?

These organizations are not bad, nor manipulating precious dollars from the pockets of well-meaning donors with lies or fabrications. The fact is, the videos, pictures, documented cases of abuse, and testimonials exist. PETA, HSUS, and others are just making the information available, providing opportunities for people to voice objections, whether its by volunteering a service, writing a letter, or donating cash.

PETA has a bad rap, because though they represent a minority, they are big, they are loud, and they employ often unpleasant in-your-face tactics that make it hard to turn a deaf ear. You don't need to like what they do, but please don't turn to insulting the gentle vegan.


I don't especially like the NRA or the Dairy Industry, but I don't stomp around cursing radical meat-eaters under my breath either. I might like to poke a furrier in the eye though.


Just some food for thought, so to speak. Get to know the groups you think you hate, you might surprise yourself by finding things about them you actually agree with.

[SmithFamilyLoft]

Originally Posted by karijo

I'm a "radical vegan", member of both PETA and HSUS, life-long animal rights activist... and yet I lack the "true agenda" you speak of......


I don't especially like the NRA or the Dairy Industry, but I don't stomp around cursing radical meat-eaters under my breath either. I might like to poke a furrier in the eye though.


Just some food for thought, so to speak. Get to know the groups you think you hate, you might surprise yourself by finding things about them you actually agree with.

From a political point of view....if one looks hard enough, one can find something , maybe the sky is blue, that you can say....OK I agree with that. The problem is, when you are supporting an organization, you must look at the whole picture. And if there is something in that picture, that is important enough, then you may have to actively oppose that group, even if you support or agree with some good things, they may do. A very extreme example would be groups such as the Nazi's or KKK. I am sure if one looks hard enough, there were some good things they did also such as feeding people, helping the poor, building affordable housing, provided jobs, etc. etc. However, there were/are a few details in their agenda's which negates any good they may have done. So, in my extreme example, I don't need to closely examine them in order to find things that I might agree with. The fact that if I did, I might find something that I might agree with, or might find something positive, does not mean that they should not be actively opposed.

You suggest or advocate that poking a stick in the eye of a furrier may not be such a bad idea, even if in some form of jest, is what concerns many folks in the mainstream. You may start with poking out eyes of furrier's, and then progress to farmers, and then pigeon hobbyists. And why some Fascist animal rights people progress to setting bombs and killing people, all in the name of saving animals.

I appreciate your views, and like most people, I think reasonable people support the humane treatment of animals. Where the debates begin, is when the issues begin to take on a political flavor. And when groups and their supporters start down the road of lobbying, demonstrations, etc. they are expressing and promoting political views and agendas. And reasonable people, can disagree, but the tricky part is not to turn these pages into a political battleground of opposing groups.

[Jay3]

[quote=SmithFamilyLoft;335577]From a political point of view....if one looks hard enough, one can find something , maybe the sky is blue, that you can say....OK I agree with that. The problem is, when you are supporting an organization, you must look at the whole picture. And if there is something in that picture, that is important enough, then you may have to actively oppose that group, even if you support or agree with some good things, they may do.

Well, you people can go back and forth forever on this topic, but if not for organizations like this, there would be no one, absolutely no one, to speak up for the rights of animals. And if you stick your head in the sand long enough, and keep telling yourself that these things don't still exist, and try to sell that idea to others, does that really make you feel better? Or is it on a more personal level that you are concerned? What is it that would make you feel so threatened? These groups aren't there to stop people from owning pets, as long as there is not abuse involved. Nor are they there to stop people from enjoying a hobby, as long, as I said, there is no abuse involved. What is it that worries you? Can you all say that in your ownership or animals, or in your animal hobbies that there is no abuse involved? Because, that abuse is what they fight to change. Unfair, cruel treatment of animals for a persons benefit. If you can honestly say that there is no cruelty or abuse, then I see no reason why anyone would worry. But if there is.............then it needs to be addressed. And stopped. They don't dredge up old images of things that are not going on anymore. It's just that people look the other way far too often. Maybe it starts creeping too close to home. Makes one wonder why they would bother anyone who has only the animals best welfare in mind.JMO

[karijo]

i said "poke a stick"?

heck no! i was thinking more like, my thumb.
geez.

like a gentle but to the point good old thumb in the eye.
and not in the name of PETA.

As a jew, I have to take some offense here and can hardly see how you can even in the most extreme remotest way compare a group like PETA, aimed at saving and protecting the lives of innocent creatures, with the Nazi's and the KKK, clearly after a much much different agenda. Come on. I think you're being a little bit of an extremist, no?

I was simply trying to offer the suggestion that these are groups working towards a kinder life for animals - they aren't even for a moment suggesting a less kind life for scientists, farmers, pet owners, etc. They are about relieving pain and suffering, not spreading it. I was only trying to help you see beyond a viewpoint that seemed to me lacking an understanding of the "true agenda" of these groups, because I think you have been mislead somewhere into thinking these groups support radical behavior, when they assert that they do not.

I think in your reply you lost sight of the point you originally made, and the point you are defending. I agree with you that extremists in the animal rights sect can take things too far - what I am trying to explain to you is that it is incorrect to lump PETA and HSUS, education based organizations, in with those people and groups.

I hope my message is clearer to you.

Meanwhile, "And when groups and their supporters start down the road of lobbying, demonstrations, etc. they are expressing and promoting political views and agendas" ?
Erm... isn't that the whole point? Change is a result of action and education, and lobbying and demonstrating. Are you equally opposed to groups you support lobbying and demonstrating and expressing and promoting political views and agendas? How would you propose to bring about change in the causes you believe in, no matter what they are? Bumperstickers and clever t-shirts can only take us so far.

[SmithFamilyLoft]

Originally Posted by karijo

......Meanwhile, "And when groups and their supporters start down the road of lobbying, demonstrations, etc. they are expressing and promoting political views and agendas" ?
Erm... isn't that the whole point? Change is a result of action and education, and lobbying and demonstrating. Are you equally opposed to groups you support lobbying and demonstrating and expressing and promoting political views and agendas? How would you propose to bring about change in the causes you believe in, no matter what they are? Bumperstickers and clever t-shirts can only take us so far.

I think my point is/was, that these pages may not be the best place to do lobbying and/or promoting of political views and such for another group. The organizations which you belong to, have their own web sites and blogs in which members who support such things can go to. I may belong to the Future Farmers of America, the NRA National Rifle Association, Beef Growers Association, or other such organizations which also have viewpoints about animals and their care, but I don't attempt to use these pages to promote their viewpoints and/or attempt to find fault with those who don't hold their views as gospel.........there was once a famous American who said "Extremism in pursuit of Liberty is no Vice"...most American's did not agree apparently with his assessment, since he lost the election by a landslide. And I suspect that many would also have a problem with "Extremism in pursuit of Animal Rights, is no Vice"....well that's my final two cents on this particular subject.

[karijo]

Hey, I was simply responding to the original slandering of vegans as radical animal rights activists with secret agendas.

Spoken like the sissy vegan I am, "THEY started it!"


"Originally Posted by risingstarfans
I am aware of the source of the footage, and you are right, it is an attempt to get donations for the Humane Society of the United States and People bor the Ethical Treatment of Animals. Both of these groups are radical vegans whose true agenda is the abolishment of the keeping and use of any animals whether as food, fur or family pets. Or even as a hobby. Do not confuse the HSUS with the real Humane Society founded over 120 years ago that do good works...."

[Lilito54]

PA State Police Misconduct - Corrupt Cop

An Illinois animal protection organization has filed a complaint with the Internal Affairs Division of the Pennsylvania State Police relating to a pigeon shoot held at the Strausstown Rod and Gun Club Sunday, November 23, 2008.

The incident involved State Police Corporal Kenneth J. Winter, who violated the rights of citizens, using intimidation and threats of police action to eject them from public easement outside the gun club.

A video of the incident was posted on YouTube for the world to see at:

PA State Police Misconduct
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OI8qxeyMcuQ

[TAWhatley]

PA State Police Misconduct - Corrupt Cop

Very, very disturbing at several levels. I'm sure the complaint against the officer will eventually wend it's way through the bureaucracy so I'm not going to lose much sleep over that, but the extreme brutality to the pigeons from the children is sickening and the stuff of which nightmares are made. It's bad enough that the pigeons were shot in the first place but to then let the birds suffer and ultimately die from being kicked, hit, and sqashed by kids is extreme cruelty. This is just my personal opinion, and others are certainly entitled to theirs.

Terry

[Lilito54]

In my opinion, these children are being abused by the adults around them. It is not in children's nature to mistreat living beings. Cruelty towards animals, specially this kind of senseless bloody butchery is learned behavior.
These kids are subjected by adults to witness and participate in horrendous, barbarous acts but I very much doubt they enjoy it.
If authorities were more sensitive to children's needs they would not allow the abuse. Hunting for "pleasure" (destroying, annihilating) live animals is not a right of passage for any human being with a soul. It is just shameful and disgusting!

[Charis]

Originally Posted by Lilito54

In my opinion, these children are being abused by the adults around them. It is not in children's nature to mistreat living beings. Cruelty towards animals, specially this kind of senseless bloody butchery is learned behavior.
These kids are subjected by adults to witness and participate in horrendous, barbarous acts but I very much doubt they enjoy it.
If authorities were more sensitive to children's needs they would not allow the abuse. Hunting for "pleasure" (destroying, annihilating) live animals is not a right of passage for any human being with a soul. It is just shameful and disgusting!

I agree with you 100%.

[John_D]

Does anyone have any update on the legislation about the pigeon shoots?

If not, then there's nothing more in the way of 'news and advocacy' to say on this thread until we actually get some news.

John