:(

[pdpbison]

Hi feralpigeon,


Well said...

I just reviewed the progression here, and my own immaturity has obliged me into the embarassment of trying to justify myself.


Now, maybe if I had 'positively' advocated what I believe to be the wholesome scenario or overview, I would not have aroused so much negative and confused emotional reactions.

As it is, sometimes I do in fact do so state things in entirely "positive' terms, and I will say most people can sort of handle it 'better', and, sometimes I do not.


Yours,

Phil
Las Vegas

[AZWhitefeather]

Originally Posted by Pigeonpal2002

Hi Phil and everyone,
I am sorry Phil, but I have to agree with the others here on this one. I feel you were a little harsh to this person regardless of the circumstances. You mention of reading between the lines, but unfortunately this person hasn't really given much information about anything in any great detail. Even going back on the past posts, they have been pretty vague. Yes, she said she caught a bird but maybe it was injured or sick, she never said anything about this. If it was captured relatively easily, it may have well been not up to par.

I strongly feel that the debate is over, this person came here for a little moral support and possible advice, not to have her topic or herself be psycho analized by members here. That is not our job. Let's wait to her from the person HERSELF again and see what she says before everyone gets in an uproar.

Thanks,

According to surfingpigeon's initial post (see below), the reason behind 'capturing' the squeaker appears quite clear (see highlighted area).

"Everyday almost, I go to the local park to feed the birds. I notice there are a lot of pigeons there eating bread crumbs and scrapes. What I hate to see is when children throw rocks at them, and hit them resulting in injury. Angry, I decided to capture one of these pigeons to a nice home. It seems to still be a juvenille, since it is just now getting in new feathers, and makes a "peeping" noise. Naturally, I wanted the pigeon to have a good home. So I bought a roomy cage, plenty of grains and pigeon scratch, and fresh water atleast 5-6 times a day. What I don't understand, is how much this bird distrusts me. I can't hold it, touch it, talking it or anything! From my understanding, pigeons are friendly people birds. What's going on? Will he warm up to me eventually"

It's quite obvious surfingpigeon was thinking of the squeaker's welfare. I would venture to say the reason he was easily caught was because he was a baby.
All the responses, iincluding yours Phil, in that you agreed with the others, were suggestions on how to 'tame' this wild bird.
It seems a tab bit unfair to now give surfingpigeon a tongue lashing because the pigeon decided to move on.

Surfingpigeon:
You meant well , however more times than not a healthy pigeon that has been captured, for whatever reason, seems to prefer life on the wild side, if you will. An ill or injured pigeon, on the other hand, is usually grateful (to a point) to be caught & treated. Once recovered, even they often prefer to be released back into the wild.

You appeared to have taken heed of the initial advice given, unfortunately your new found freathered friend was one that preferred the wild side of life.

I have 8 pigeons that have become family pets. They are all rescued, non-releasables, ranging from common to fancy to show & even a blind pigeon. They each have a unique personality & are such a joy.
The rewards of offering a home to a non-releasable pigeon are great.
Just something to think about.

Cindy

[Pigeonpal2002]

Thank you Cindy

Yes, when I went back to cross reference the first post from Surfingpigeon I saw that she had indeed mentioned the circumstances of how and why she was able to capture the pigeon. I have a bad habit of skimming through posts at times, especially when I'm at work or distracted I tend to go by memory mostly in regards to past posts but as we all know, memories are faulty. Thanks for bringing this to all of our attention so that hopefully this whole question of sincerity and this person's judgement can be dropped.

Let's just hope that Surfingpigeon will come back now and seek the help and advice she wanted. We're a support group for pigeons and people who care for them afterall

[photokev]

I sent her an email asking her to please come back but didn't get a response. This is a great forum, a model for any special interest group. I really hope she comes back but I guess the damage has been done.

[auntisocial]

Hi Surfingpigeon,

My husband and I have recently become foster parents to two sets of pigeon babes. They are such a joy and we have become attached to them... their loving personalities. The first pair is now 7 going on 8 weeks old, spend more and more time outside and seem to have become part of a flock that lives nearby. This is fortunate for us as we believe we'll be able to see them from time-to-time.

I still tear up when I think about the possibility of not seeing them, but I also know that they are meant to be out in the wild. Part of me swells with pride when I think of these two who were rescued when only days old by two people who knew NOTHING about keeping them alive let alone helping them grow and then being able to successfully release them back into their natural habitat -- from having NO life to a CHANCE at a normal life.

Thank you for taking an interest in and helping this bird. I understand the pain at suddenly having this void... I NEVER expected to feel such a deep caring and attachment for our miracle babies. There have been good suggestions here -- from what I understand there are many pigeons that need homes because they are not able to make it in the outside world. Perhaps this type of scenario would be something to look into. I wish you all the best.

P.S. Phil, I don't even know what to say to you.

[Pigeonpal2002]

Originally Posted by auntisocial

Part of me swells with pride when I think of these two who were rescued when only days old by two people who knew NOTHING about keeping them alive let alone helping them grow and then being able to successfully release them back into their natural habitat -- from having NO life to a CHANCE at a normal life.

Hi Laura,

Yes, you ARE to be acknowledged and patted on the back for your wonderful efforts and achievements. Not everyone can successfully raise two young pigeons as you have without having hands on experience and working from nil. You're a good person full of respect for nature. You do the board "proud" by your accomplishment and views, Great job here!

[auntisocial]

Originally Posted by Pigeonpal2002

Hi Laura,

Yes, you ARE to be acknowledged and patted on the back for your wonderful efforts and achievements. Not everyone can successfully raise two young pigeons as you have without having hands on experience and working from nil. You're a good person full of respect for nature. You do the board "proud" by your accomplishment and views, Great job here!

Thank you for your kind words. (It doesn't mean I don't worry about them when they're gone or get misty-eyed at the thought that there's certainly a chance I won't see them again. I guess I'm just a Mom. LOL)

[surfingpigeon]

I just want to give a thank you to everyone who believes my intentions for animals. I love animals, and since I can remember I've always cared for one.

To receive such hateful comments from anyone is a shock. I came here to seek personal advice about one of my favorite type of birds. Although I can't imagine why accusations such as "sociopath" were addressed to me, I completely understand to leave a perfectly healthy pigeon alone.

Since I was around nine years old, I use to visit the ponds to feed the domestic ducks and geese grains. I knew at one time they were pets, and missed the vitamins they lacked from bread. I would often see broken legged ducks and geese, pigeons with fishing wire wrapped around their feet, and poor defenseless juvenilles being run over by unsupervised children.

I would cut off all the fishing wire off the pigeons, and set them free. I would take the ducks and geese with an infection or broken leg to a veterniarian, although money is scarce in my family. The pond I went to since I was young, still had pigeons. I use to love pigeon, espescially when they flew on my arm to receive some seeds. So of course when I see two teenagers "pigeon fishing", I responded.

Phil, I am very sorry if I offended you in any way. I assure EVERYONE on this forum and anyone else, that my intentions were to help the little pigeon. I wanted a better life for him, a one filled with love, food that he didn't have to fight for, and clean water instead of the stagnet pond water. Eventually, I wanted him to warm up to me as a nice little pet to take care of. What I'm trying to say is, my only intention was to present a nice, safe home for the bird.

Phil also writes that I have no expeirence with birds. I have to disagree Phil, because I've always been fond of birds. So fond, that I own chickens, ducks and my grandfather previously owned pigeons aswell.

Although I was very upset to the point of tears, I wish to continue to talk and have conversations with the good people on pigeons.com. I am pleased and grateful to have such good friends already.

Thank you.

-James F.

[photokev]

Glad your back SP!

[auntisocial]

Thanks for coming back.

[feralpigeon]

Hi James,

Thanks for staying the course and hanging in with us @ PT in spite of unkind
words and assumptions that were made.

[Pigeonpal2002]

Hi James,

Glad that you decided to post again. Were you able to get any suggestions in between all the commotion? Hopefully someone has given you some ideas that would help you decide if you would or be able to adopt another bird, if that is what you want. Pigeons are often up for adoption here in Pigeon talk or you could try your local animal shelter. Ever thought about a pair of doves, these are usually easy to obtain as well and very friendly and lovable.

[zoo keeper]

James I too am glad you came back!!! Do you still want a pet pigeon?

[pigeonmama]

Hey James,
What do you have for chickens and ducks? My 16 yr. old son has many chickens, a few turkeys, and I have the pigeons.
Daryl

[pdpbison]

Hi Cindy,


You mention -

"It's quite obvious surfingpigeon was thinking of the squeaker's welfare. I would venture to say the reason he was easily caught was because he was a baby.
All the responses, iincluding yours Phil, in that you agreed with the others, were suggestions on how to 'tame' this wild bird.
It seems a tab bit unfair to now give surfingpigeon a tongue lashing because the pigeon decided to move on. "


With kindness, I must say, that what is 'obvious' to me here, is that they elected the easiest prospective victim according to their means to find one amid the Pigeons, and likely, intentionally, a 'young' one who might be presumed to 'come around' better than an older more self posessed one.

And from their description, you presume that the ostensible, explicitly stated interest of surfingpeon to "give a good home' is their motive, or primary motive, rather, than, what I take to be the case here, also explicitly stated in their post, that they were imposeing a unilateral contract or forced bargain to hold the Bird laible for keeping with him/her, to wit, the Bird owes them a debt to 'like' them for catching them and putting them in a cage with Seeds Grit and Water, (with no deference in any (other) way to the Pigeon, no interest in it's feelings on the matter, no interests in it's other dimensions of engenuous needs, no interest in it's subsequent developement into an adolescent or adult and the shifting patterns of it's needs then, ) and no interests in allowing it to grow up, or to in any way 'have' it's own feelings about any of it at any phase.

The pretext of 'giving it a good home' in "this" actual context, kind of says to me what sp holds as an internal 'model' of what a 'home' is, and, in my view, as conjecture, this is the model they learned from it being done to them in effect.

It is, in fact 'Loveless'.

It is, in fact, 'needy'...

Needy is not the same as 'needs'...or, it is distinguished by victim making, rather than in deference to the needs of others when those 'needs' are 'healthy'.

'Needy' does not discern as to what is Healthy...it only wishes to fill it's own void, and, often, is indifferent to the cost to others, or to even be aware of those 'costs'.

Needy likes to make others into debters, in guises of helping them or other pretexts.


So, other than satisfying a facile notion of 'value' given (unilaterally imposed on it AS an enforceable 'bargain') to it, the Pigeon is to be held in debt. A debt which the Pigeon in no real way, benifits from, other than it is in-a-cage with Seeds-grit-and-water...

(If someone one did this to your child, grabbed them off the street, would you feel they were owed 'gratitude'?)

Verses, saved them from some peril, helped them, and cared about their being nurtured to gorw up and assume automomy and self posession, and respected them for it IN their manner of 'helping' them?

This is in fact, the typical, actual 'model' of the average american 'home'.
And, it is also, technically as well as in every other way, representative of pathology and sociopathy, no matter it's pandemic occurance and normative ubiquity or invisibility to nearly everyone who themselves is a vioctim of it being done to them.

Most people never 'leave' such 'homes', and their 'debts' haunt them to their graves no matter how old they manage to become.

Or, 'obvious' to me, is that you have neither read sp's posts carefully, nor, read mine carefully, and this, please know, kindly, I am mentioning, because it is the basis of the confusion here, and, of the projections of various susbsequent posters of emotions into what has not been critically 'read'.

The primary motive here, of sp, is not to help a Pigeon ( who did not need any 'help' so far as any of us can construe), but, to impose and enforce a unilateral and coersive debt, which is premised on exploiting the Bird under pretext of 'helping them' in order to demand gratitude or affection in return.

Now, does that justify me being blunt?

Whether it does or not depends on mere decision or whim or indulgence, but, it is a worthy matter to savor and think about, or, at least, I think it is.

Deference to the engenuous needs of a Bird, to me, is the only tolerable 'motive' for our interveneing or captureing them, or our accepting the vulnerable status of them when they are injured or sick Adults or Babys.

May we find happiness and satisfactions in helping them?

Of course!

Do they give, share, and reciprocate affections?

Yes!

When Babys or youngsters, do they grow up to assume new modes of self posession and self interest and desires to act on them in the feral Worlds amid their fellows?

Yes!

If we allow them to do so, Yes!

Does this mean that they, and we, engenuously discover the previous noble bonds of their reliance or dependance on us when they were Babys, to loosen and to reform into something else, where no dependance exists?

Yes!

This is the right order of things...

People who never got the right order of things in themselves, will find it hard to imagine there is any right order of things.


Respect for the engenuous and reasonable needs of Birds, is clearly distinct from unilateral impositions of indebtedness upon them for extracting damands of 'affection' from them, for a gratitude they are supposed to feel, for something we have done ostensibly 'for' them.

Or to have a deep sense of loss which ignores completely the Birds engenuous needs, because they 'flew' away' from being one's victim-catpive-debtee...anbd one is hearbroken, but soon seeking a new victim to do it to.

The difference between Pathos and Eros, is whether Love, and in a sense, 'Health' in a positive way, characterize the actual substance and fabric and palpable mood of a gesture or interaction or stance.

Pathology, is what remains in the absense of Eros, or, the absense of Love. Or is what is occupied in consolations for the loss of Love in one's self.

Needyness, or it's pretexts and cover stories or strategies, is not 'Love', though it will often insist, at the expense of it's victims, or at the expense of the sanity or intelligence of it's audience, that it is. It often 'insists' by imposeing violence on doubters, when it can get away with it, just to prove it's point only too well.
One sees 'human parents' do this often...

it is what was 'dopne to; them when they were children, who were 'trained' to be and remain, variously, 'dependant'.

It works, pretty good, too...

While...
Love, among other things, is an order of Truth, an order of knowable Truth and livable Truth, and, can be the actuality of what embues behaviours WITH that Truth.

Pretenses for stratedy sake, false fronts, cover stories, or even self delusions or prior justifications which seek to qualify something, are, just that...

Know the difference, and understand it....and there will be less confusions about what-is-what.

About from which 'direction'...the Sun doth 'rise'...

About Orientation...

About reality...

Love,


Best wishs,

Thank you for the dialogue...


Phil
Las Vegas