:(

[surfingpigeon]

Last week when I opened the cage to my feral pigeon, Beaver, he escaped. Ever since then I've felt really sad beyond belief. I just wanted to help the little guy, and now I can't find him.

If anyone here on this website is a breeder, or has pigeons for sale, I'd like to buy a friendly guy.

[pdpbison]

Hi surfingpigeon,


I may be speaking in haste here, but I do not think it sounds like you yet posess the emotional maturity to have any kind of Bird.

Please wait another decade or two.

Birds are not 'things' for you to make captives of to feed your emotional needyness and loveless home-life or boredom at their expense.

Please do not be trying to 'do' to captive Animals what your parents did to you.

I will venture that the Bird who escaped did the healthiest thing possible for them to do, and, I am glad they did.




Phil
Las Vegas

[feralpigeon]

Hi Surfing Pigeon,

I'm sorry to hear about the pigeon that you tried to help out a few weeks back.
I don't know what your living situation is but if you brought in another bird,
would the conditions that the first one "escaped" through be resolved? That
might be a consideration for you before acquiring a second.

I think the friendliness that is experienced between you and a pet bird has
as much to do with time nurturing that relationship as it does the temperment
of the bird. It just takes time and patience and something is bound to unfold.
One possibility for you would be to adopt a bird who really needs a loving
home from an animal shelter.....if you are unaware of the ones in your area,
I'm sure you could "google it".
Here's one link you could try:

http://www.petfinder.com/pet.cgi?act...Bird&preview=1

Also, you might check w/our own adoption forum. There was a bird posted
recently in need of a home. If you keep an eye on that section, and you don't mind shipping, I'm sure something will come up that will be a win-win situation, a pet for you and a home for a deserving pigeon.

[JGregg]

Phil, please don't take it personally but I think that you came down a little too hard in this case. Positive intrest in pigeons should be encouraged and you are acting to discourage somebody.


Sufingpigeon, I'm sorry to hear that your pigeon took off. You were very lucky that your bird is familiar with living in the wild and healthy so there was no harm done in this case. It would be good to be more careful with the cages in the future when you have another pigeon. Pigeons rasied in captivity are not usually able to make it outside, so getting out of the cage can be a death sentence.

[photokev]

Hey Surfingpigeon,
Your heart is in the right place. Helping animals is always the right thing to do and sometimes the best way to help them is to leave them in their environment. I struggle with that myself sometimes. If you've followed any of the post I've left you'll know I have a feral pigeon in my life right now. I rescued the bird at a very young age from drowning and hand reared her until she decided for herself it was time to go. She still chooses to visit me every day arriving in the morning and then leaving in the late afternoon. I'd be lying if I told you the thought never crossed my mind not to open the window when she asks to go. She's become a big part of my life and I do honestly love her with all my heart.

I know Phil wants what's best for the bird and in this case it sounds like it was a healthy bird and really should live free, however his personal opinions about you are outrageous. I can't speak for anyone else here but I apologize for what he said, it was way out of line.

Pets do fill voids WE ALL have in our lives. If you read any of the post here, people speak of their birds with great affection and consider them members of their families. A good pet though probably isn't a healthy wild bird though only because you're robbing them of the chance to fly free and raise a family.

I don't know you or your living situation, you may be getting ready to graduate HS and go off to college or join the military, and if that's the case, getting a pet now may not be the best thing. BUT, if you aren't going anywhere and you really like birds, get a hand raised canary or maybe someone else here can recommend a good fit for you. Don't wait 20 years like was suggested.

In the meantime, don't stop feeding the wild pigeons. Anytime you're outside interacting positively with an animal is a good thing. Get active in the animal rights community in your area. Like I said, your heart's in the right place.

Kevin

[pdpbison]

Hi JGreg,


I was seeing bad saturday night live skits of 'Lenny' wanting to pet-the-puppy.

Maybe I have seen too much of this form clueless insensate tee-vee and fast food 'raised' people who know nothing and feel nothing but their own use for others.

If I sound 'hard', what is that compared to the actual reality one so often sees whic their 'pets' enedure or die in?

In a five year old, maybe it is sort of 'understandable'...in a 17 year old, something is way missing here.

When the entire premis is wrong, how does one 'encourage'?

Not by patronizeing, I do not think...

Nothing said of this persons wishing to learn or to understand better, but, only that their needyness is disappointed at a captive Creature's 'escape'...why did they have this Bird in the first place? To benifit the Bird somehow? If so, then "how"?

One can 'read'...and sometimes much is said even in a short sentence or two.

To me, this is quiet horror...

This person is far from the self awareness for any kind of other-awareness to have any reality.

I do not approve of cruelty to Animals to patronize ner-do-wells home-boredoms and clueless emprisonment of smal creatures.

what do you feel there is to 'work with' with this person?

Their deference to Birds and their sincere interest in them?

Or, their facile thing-making needyness, seeking easy small victims?

Do tell...

To me, it smelled of everything I would not want to see happen...


Not all people posess the character developement for 'having' anyone or anything dependant on them, or, they seek dependance and not the benifit of the other.

Bad either way...

I do not think it is a good thing to patronize it when we see it.

Phil
Las Vegas

[pdpbison]

Hi Kevin,


Ohhhhh..have you not seen this sort of thing in real life often enough?

It has it's own smell, it's own scent, it's own mood.

Bet me a hundred bucks I am 'wrong', and if there was some real way to check, I think you'd loose your C-Note...

I am a pretty good call...

And being forthright, I think, is allright now and then.

I wonder how many other small animals or Birds have allready 'passed' one way or another through this persons cages?

Smells bad to me, and I was not shy to say so.

Bad is bad, and you can spend all day trying to teach them something, and in the end, they will know only their own needyness and it's indifferent use of others at the other's expense.

Maybe you should selll them one of your favorite Birds then.

See how long it lasts...

Maybe it too will 'escape', literally or figuratively...


In good humor, or tough-love maybe,

Yours,

Phil
Las Vegas

[Lin Hansen]

Hi Phil,

I don't know what it was about Surfingpigeon's post that struck a such a nerve with you, but it's obvious that it did. I know you seem to have strong feelings about this, but I have to jump on the bandwagon and agree that your reply was a little too harsh and a little too personally insulting.

There is nothing wrong with being forthright...some people do need to be spoken to firmly at times to fully absorb information, but your reply could have been toned down a bit. I know you have the bird's best interest at heart, so please don't take offense at what I have said.

This is the original thread concerning this bird started by Surfingpigeon:
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=10133

If you read it, I think you will see that this person, while inexperienced, seemed to mean well.

Linda

[pdpbison]

Hi Linda,


...quite so, it 'struck a nerve'...

Thank you for being a kind Diplomat..!

I have refered to the earlier 'thread'...

Still, I find this -

A young Pigeon (from a feral flock which is subject to mistreatment from people, ) is caaptured, was in no particular peril or danger or deprivation, and, is given (forced to accept for no reason than someone's interference with it, ) a 'good home' with fresh scratch and seed and water and attempts to make it like the captor and to love the captor or something.

The person wants the Bird to like him/her, and, has zero interest or appreciation that the Bird has anything like it's own healthy interests or sense, or, it's own anything, or, it's own eventual probable, increasing sense of authentic and natural self posession or desires for eventual automomy to grow up. There is nothing said about intending to re-assimilate the little Bird once it is old enoough or something, back into the feral Flock.

The bird grows up enough to finally make a break for it, and, flys away ( we hope) and, then, there is all this sense of "loss" and grief because the healthy, right, and engenuously sane thing, happenned - the Bird went free as it was meant by Nature, decency, rightfullness or respect, and my it's own will, to do.

The Bird evaded being reduced into being merely someone's needyness feeding off of it thing...and a new victim now is being sought.

There is no more wishing to "help" seemingly disadvantaged 'ferals', but, to now graduate to something with less or probably less self will or automony, so it can not evade the captive exploitation and degredation it's captor wishes to impose.

Okay, so, tell me now, truely, which nuance, in the out of context initial post atop here, did I miss, in replying as I did, for now reviewing it's preceeding one? and finding, to my own sense of it, that I had in fact missed nothing?

I think, I called it right.

There is no interest here in "helping' Birds, nor any interest expresed but for feined cover story of "having" one as something to use in some way at it's expense in the thinly veiled guise of somehow 'helping them' when they do not need any help. There is no hint of interest in the Bird itself, as itself, in any way whatever at any phase of t his little saga so far...nor in it's healthy right to claim it's own freedom if it is able and disposed to do so...the interest is in pretending to help them to make things out of them for this persons emotional needyness, and, again, at every turn and in every way, at the expense of the Bird itself, or of even having any interest or common sense to care about the Bird as anything BUT a captive dependant to exploit to try and make it love them 'back' when there is no :love" being given TO the Bird in any real way aside from needyness seeking a victim, which, if I need to remind, is not Love.

This dear Linda and others who may feel I was 'harsh'...is a scenario of a common pathology and is not by any definition or charity, 'Healthy'.

Find a (well, non nutty themselves if you can find one, of, perceptive and practical ) practiceing psychiatrist or psychiatric social worker and let them 'read' the two posts, then, please, see what they say.

These scenarios are virtually 'classic'...

I apologiuse for dominating this otherwise quietly horrific and naively apprehended thread.

Look at it this way, would you like to have this person "take care" of you? On their terms? To see if ny their making you dependant, maybe they can make you 'love' them for it?

Well?

...are we 'seeing' it yet?

Hello???



"What Rhinosaurous???"




Lol...

Phil
Las Vegas

[photokev]

Phil,
I'll respond to your post and then we can call it a day. This isn't the place for this debate...

I have to ask, do you know this person? To say the things you said regarding this young persons character are so far beyond beyond the bounds of good taste I'm at a loss to even know what your thought process was. I can't imagine a more hurtful way to express what is after all, only your opinion. I'm offended by what you said and it wasn't even directed at me.

Telling someone you don't even know that they have a "loveless homelife" and that they're "emotionally needy" and implying they were abused as a child is OUTRAGEOUS by any standard of decency. You speak of this 17 year old as having no "emotional maturity". I'll be frank with you and suggest you might want to examine your own. I can't for the life of me understand why a 51 year old man would say something like that to a teenager taking the first steps of responsibility and adulthood. What effect do you think your words have had? This person came here to an open forum for support and advice. Was your plan to make him feel so bad about himself he'd never again consider having a pet of any kind?

You mention "tough love" and "humor" as reasons for your post. I just see it as poor judgment. Just my opinion, and my last word on it.

[pdpbison]

Hi photokev,


This is not a 'teenager taking the sirst steps to responsibility and adulthood'...

This is pathology.

A 'teenager' or anyone assumeing 'steps' of responsibility or 'adulthood' would not capture a perfectly allright wild Bird, and force it into a cage and lament on it's somehow getting 'out' with no, zero, nada mention of in any way being concerned about the well being of the Bird, or ever intending that it SHOULD resume it's own life on it's own terms, while expressing only the hunger and depravity of their own loss thta it DID assume a healthy self interest and 'escaped' to own it's own life.

They were actually looking 'for' a victim who was compromised whom they may assume controll over to exploit.

This, if you need to be told bluntly, is really a very, very fundimental thing...a very fundimental distinction -

Is our deference 'to' the other? For their sakes? Are we interested in their well being, and in their terms, responsibly? As say, with a Bird?

I am not interested in 'this' persons' "well being". I see them as an incipient sociopath and testing their progression as a preditor and victim sniffer and manipulator. I have seen many such people and I am happy to call them 'as' I see them.

Or, as for having in some way, a captive Bird ( or anyone, ) does our use of, or interest in an other merely serve our indifference 'to' them? At their expense? - with or without fatuous cover stories about 'helping' them, especially when they did not in their own or any terms, need our 'help'?

What is the 'loss' here ?

That a healthy feral Creature had the opoortunity to assume it's own Life again? and escaped an exploitive confinement imposed upon it?

How is that a 'loss'?

If this person were emotionally 'Healthy' they would be glad the Bird COULD and DID assume it's own Life, which they in fact interupted being a meddler and user of it to make it a captive to try and make it like them...it wants someone to 'like' them, and now seeks a more tame Bird...okay...

This, to me is a scarey scenario...

Have you people seen so little of people-life as NOT to get the drift here with this thing? Or do you explicitly condone it, when you DO 'see' it, as you seem to be doing here?

Explain it to me please...


With all due respect and affection, none of you so far seem able to 'read' the simple disclosures of this person.


You are defending what seems to be a delusion or complaisent projection upon what-they-actually-said, which ignores what they actually "said".

Read what they actually said, please?

Read it c-a-r-e-f-u-l-l-y...

It is a "reading comprehension thing", kinda like when you were catpives, in 'school'...

Lol...

Or, too, lighten up, it is a "discussion"...not a manditory, automatic pandering and enableing what is sometimes clearly 'wrong' as far as the well being OF a Bird, of allways insisting everyone and all they do, no matter how blatantly in appropriate TO Birds, is "Thank you for rescueing this Pigeon" when they did not 'rescue' it at all. They kidnapped it from it's own autonomous Life to make it a captive which they hoped would 'like' them for it.

Pay attention...!

Read what is said...

Best wishes,

Phil
Las Vegas

[Pigeonpal2002]

Hi Phil and everyone,

I am sorry Phil, but I have to agree with the others here on this one. I feel you were a little harsh to this person regardless of the circumstances. You mention of reading between the lines, but unfortunately this person hasn't really given much information about anything in any great detail. Even going back on the past posts, they have been pretty vague. Yes, she said she caught a bird but maybe it was injured or sick, she never said anything about this. If it was captured relatively easily, it may have well been not up to par.

I strongly feel that the debate is over, this person came here for a little moral support and possible advice, not to have her topic or herself be psycho analized by members here. That is not our job. Let's wait to her from the person HERSELF again and see what she says before everyone gets in an uproar.

Thanks,

[pdpbison]

Hi Brad,


Okay...

But you must admit, this has been a interesting discussion of a side-light which bears some pause for thought...and for possible consideration in it's own thread sometime.

In some parts of my present livlihood, and in previous occupations, I was, and am obliged to make identifications in various matters or about various things, on often what are only quite small glimpses or abstractions. This often pisses people off who do not do this themselves, who are not used to it, or, unless they can double check how accurate any given 'call' was, which they will not likely want to do anyway, since their real interest is usually to be in some way forbidding someone else's abstract evidence occasions to identify something.

Often my or other people's survival depended on the calls ( identifications or judgements) I had to make, and, for what it is worth, I was wrong so seldom no one would ever bet me after the first couple times.

Pick some area you know, and say, look at one fragment...one abstraction, and, likely, you can tell something that can be 'taken to the bank' as they say.

Maybe you know muscle Cars ( I do not, but) say, and, while driveing on some neighborhood, you catch a glimpse of a part of a front fender in some weeds behind a house. The glimpse lasts one twentieth of a second or something, as you drive by, a peripheral glimpse, and, you say to your passenger, "Sixty-One Chrysler 300" or something...and maybe they want to bust your chops on "How the hell can YOU say???" ( sorry, I do not know my '60s era Mopars so I maybe am off on that designation)...

But...you were right...

Sometimes we can walk behind that house...

Sometimes not...

Like that...

I appreciate your concern...and thank you for what I know is it's spirit of good will.

Forgive me if I was upsetting please.

And, at your liesure, please consider carefully what the thread here has had actually had written in it, initially, and, after. The reactions and their structure, and, what explicitly was said. To critically 'read' is not at all what allmost all people do, and, it is hard to explain how to do it, or, even that it can be done.

When you can do it, it is no different than seeing that front fender of say ( a Car era I do know) and with a tiny glimpse, you can say, "'33, maybe '34 Mopar, likely "Plymouth"...or, "GM, smaller series, likely Pontiac, prolly not Olds, not Buick or Cad, not Chev, but, three-five, or, three-six..."

...and you will (almost) never lose a 'bet'...


Thanks Brad...

I will be happy to leave this particular thread be now...

I do think it is a worthy matter to consider in it's own thread sometime.

Meanwhile, not one of you have said, "Sure, I will sell them one of my favorite Birds!"

Have you...?

No...

So...

what say your 'gut' feelings, even if cognate critical analysis does not occur?

Do you trust this person's intentions for them to ( as you say,) 'learn' on one of your Birds?

Do you?

But it is "okay" for them to 'learn' on other, expendable ones?

Interesting...

Moreso, maybe, conflicts of pee-cee (denial?) training, and too little reality training.

Anyway...

Gets tricky sometimes...


Tell me this (oh well, that means maybe I will not leave this thread alone afterall?)

How long did it take you to figure out "birdboy12"?

Or, did you finally get-the-drift there?

I almost called that one at the get-go and I elected to leave it be while occasionally reading the progressions of it. Maybe that was the 'polite' thing to do.

Now, if I had called it at the get-go, would you (plural) have been all over me on "How can you SAY that!!!! HOW dare you make these presumptions How rude of you!!!!" and so on?

Well, wouldja have?


Lol...

I think, you would have...!

But after a while, even you could finally 'see' that one...no?

Yes...

So...

I will not call any more of them at the get-go, or after.

I will let you get stroked along untill a preponderance of progressive accrueing 'clues' lets you wise up at your own pace, if a given thread OF such things lasts long enough for you to do so.

And, we can maybe take this aspect of it to it's own thread sometime, to look at it carefully with no 'real' people as examples, being needed.



&

Best wishes,

Phil
Las Vegas

[minimonkey]

Ummm...Phil? A sociopath? I don't quite know where you are getting your ideas....


A sociopath would likely be setting birds on fire at the tender age of seven (I'm a therapist, I can speak to this professionally..) not trying to provide a bird with a good life, at the age of 17, even if the intention was somewhat misguided.

I agree that nabbing a healthy feral was not the best of plans -- but I think this young human would do well with a tame pigeon. If I had one to spare, I'd gladly do so --- I don't, as I am in love with the two ferals we saved from death at the hands of our building manager. (Hell -- I feel guilty for robbing them of their feral lives -- but they'd have been dead if they had been left alone. If they get antsy later, we'll find someone to do a soft release...)

How is this any different, really, from any other "selfish" human who wishes for animal company and procures a "pet"?? I hope this fellow finds the company of a tame and unreleasable bird, and they share much happy time together.

[feralpigeon]

Just an observation. Information by itself, is just that, information. When put
in a constructive format, it can be utilized and built on to everyone's learning advantage. When put in a damning format, it can isolate, and frustrate communication and growth. At which point, what would the point of the communication be? Perhaps starting a new thread simultaneously would have
been a more constructive route.