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#16
12th September 2006, 03:32 PM
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Yuck, Phil!
You don't need to tell EVERYTHING you know... ya' know? The only thing that I worry for here is that the "one leg forward" reminds me of my Chance, who's been gone now for five years. Chance stubbornly stuck one leg forward and the other one was atrophied some. Actually, his entire left side didn't do as well, even the wing feathers were slower to grow. I'd fly him around the house and he'd flap those wings, the right one strongly and the left one weakly. He did get better but he was never "right". I've always believed that it was a Salmonella vertical transmission deal with him (got it when he was still in the egg). Pidgey 
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#17
12th September 2006, 03:34 PM
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Hi Phil,
That is so funny, LOL. I appreciate your thoughts and I love all your wonderful variety of foods for the birds. I have two hens sitting on dummies and every day I MAKE them go outside to get fresh air and sunshine. They lay enormouspoops in the aviary and I have to get the hose out and spray them off the floor. The point here is, they DO have a certain odor, but it isn't really what I consider to be smelly. It is also quite distinct from coccidosis poopy smell. Smelly to me would indicate, a very strong pungent odor.
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#18
12th September 2006, 03:46 PM
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I can't vouch for slippery (thank goodness) but I can vouch for room-evacuating rank for sure
 I am pretty sure that she IS holding it in. I'll have to see when I get home how many poops are in the box. I'll be sure to take those pics later on. I'm not sure if I have access to anything that can weigh her in grams, but I will check around the office and see if we have a mail scale I can borrow or something.
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#19
12th September 2006, 04:13 PM
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Hi ryiinn,
Well, what we need to do here is to see how confident we can be about whether this Leg issue, arises from possible nerve injury/trauma, possibly occuring from a hyperextention or contusion to the Bird's lower back in some accident, or, from some bacterial-illness problem such as Salmonella...or some illness effecting her Kidneys that can effect her sciatic or other nerves in that region. I have been sort of voting for nerve injury/trauma, oweing to the poop-habits lending some affirmation to a lower back injury scenario, which can effect the bowells' regularity as well as the Legs...but... But this is just a guess of course, and I have only seen these kinds of things a few times...where I myself have not seen any impediments incidental to Salmonella/Paratyphoid ilness and consequences, like others here have. So, Pidgey and others possibly, need to see if there are any other things to be looking for here, to decide if some course of specific antibiotics or other meds might be prudent. Can you see if there is any swelling of the Bird's Wing Joints? especially the ones closest to her body? If one side has a swollen joint, it will be easy to tell ny feel, in contrast to the other non-swollen joint on the other Wing... If this is from a Nerve injury, the somewhat atrophied Leg would have to have needed some time for their difference to be appearent...and if so, the Bird would have had a very difficult time surviveing if it was not flying and able to land and take off and so on...so..this is kind of puzzleing to me... Unless only that Leg had been effected by a nerve injury/trauma, ( if that is possible for onely one Leg to be effected) and she'd been getting by on one Leg, then sprained or strained the one 'good' Leg and then became grounded... Same with possible Paratyphoid/Salmonella scenarios...if it was effecting them enough to atrophy one Leg, how did the Bird survive till you found it? Unless, if as a young Paratyphoid surviver, it was getting by on one ' good' Leg, after fledging, and had been forraging for itself, then maybe strained or sprained that one 'good' Leg, to then be grounded...when you found them. A grounded Pigeon will seldom survive very long, or even for a day really without someone careing for it...and it will really erode it's feathers in no time also, if literally on the 'ground' trying to move themselves with their Wings only...so... Phil Las Vegas Last edited by pdpbison; 12th September 2006 at 04:19 PM.
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#20
12th September 2006, 04:33 PM
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As to the nerve issue, it was always my belief in my earlier years that all the nerves ran up and down the spine. In fact, the nerve for the intestinal tract is a different nerve that doesn't go down the spine. You'll like this, Phil, it's called the "vagus" nerve (pronounced like Las Vegas) which means "wandering".
Anyhow, motor control goes down the spine and, as you've said, the specific nerves for the legs (the sciatic nerve) goes through the kidneys. It is possible for there to be pressure from an infection (e.g., E. coli) of the kidneys that would pressure that nerve, causing weakness/paralysis (medically: paresis). On the practical side, it's a 'how are you going to prove it?' deal. If the thought was strong that way, you'd prescribe a suitable antibiotic and see if the patient "responded to therapy". Frankly, a lot of the time we do better when we shoot first with antibiotics and ask questions later. I'll have to go back and read all Ryiinn's posts again, now. Pidgey
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#21
12th September 2006, 04:51 PM
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Well, Ryiinn,
Go here and study the skeletal drawings: http://people.eku.edu/ritchisong/skeleton.html It is notoriously difficult to discover some fractures of the leg because of the feathers and the fact that it might be close enough to a joint that it seems to work just fine. I've had several pigeons hop around at my feeder over the years who eventually got better quite on their own. I've also had some broken legs that I could only tell that the leg was broken because the bird wouldn't stand on it. After some splinting and time, they just got better and so I've always assumed that that's what they had. If your bird's leg isn't out of position, he can certainly heal on his own in time without intervention if that's what it is. In such cases, they just get better and better until they're finally limping around and then they just start looking normal. If, however, you can prove that the joint was broken (and you shouldn't be able to now because it's been too long, by the way) with an X-Ray, then you'd have a better idea whether the problem was a break or something more along the lines of a damaged nerve. It's always a suspect thing when you find a pre-fledgling out of the nest and on the ground. Usually, their nests are "up there" fairly high and if they can't fly worth a crap then they had to get down somehow that was probably faster than it should have been. For the bird that I mentioned in an earlier post, Chance, the vet thought that the problem wasn't in the body or nerves, but rather the brain. As such, there wasn't anything to do but help the bird try and work the brain more. I'd hold his wings to steady him while I helped him walk, I'd hold him under the body and fly him (remember, his entire left side was underdeveloped) and so forth until we got him nearer towards normal. He really tried, and tried hard. Pidgey
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#22
12th September 2006, 05:19 PM
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Thanks Pidey!
So hmmmmm... What to do? Should this Pigeon be recomended for a regimen and course of treatment of appropriate antibiotics, for treating a possible e-coli or salmonella illness? Is he about full grown? ( We do not really know yet...) Does he have 'white' Ceres? ( the fleshy part where their Beak meets their forehead..) Is he a sub-audult then or late juvenile? He evidently eats by himself...so... What medicines would be the best choice if one was gunna? Well...regardless, or no matter the cause of his Leg issue(s)... One good thing about a comfortable Sling...IF the Bird can put up with being in it! Is that the Legs can dangle in a controlled way, at a certain distance from the figurative 'ground' or cage bottom or whatever... And one can suspend the Bird so that their Legs can just touch bottom, or so their legs can be flat footed if the Bird wants, or a little more, so they can actually 'push' with their Legs to their heart's content ( and they usually will, too, Legs permitting ) , with the Sling holding them up just that far, and so they can and will in effect excercise their Legs this way, all on their own by pushing within whatever the set limit is one has arranged for...according to their ability to do so. Helium Balloons would be great for this too, of one knew any 'Birthday Clowns' or something to get them from easily. I intend to try that one of these days...that way, the Patient can at least 'float' around the House in their Sling, visit other Birds and so on, and not be stuck in one place all day...but of course one would want to make sure the Sling was quite secure, so they can not wriggle out of it when up near the ceiling or something...AND, to keep the doors to the outside 'closed' to they can not float "out" and up and UP and so on...to were one is calling the FAA or something to let them know...but this only for the true Dangley-Leg mode where no self excerciseing/'pushing' is wanted... Phil Las Vegas
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#23
12th September 2006, 05:28 PM
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Quote:
I TRULY resisted making the above comments BUT, the devil in me would NOT rest, soooo, I just had to give in and post to get some PEACE!!!  Please pardon my interruption... Last edited by mr squeaks; 12th September 2006 at 05:31 PM.
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#24
12th September 2006, 05:46 PM
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Quote:
Pidgey
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#25
12th September 2006, 05:50 PM
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Quote:
Oops! Sorry!!! But I DO feel sooooo much better...
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#26
13th September 2006, 03:25 PM
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Yay! The forum is back!
I took some pictures of Squidge this morning as requested. Some progress to note with her is that last night my friend called me up all excited, saying that he came home to her propped up like a little tripod on her two wings and LEG! It was a stronger of the two legs, but she's starting to kind of use it again. This morning when I took the pictures, I even noticed a slight bit of movement in her usually tucked away leg. When I went to take the pictures, I noticed that her weaker leg didnt' even seem to be tucked away like usual! This is great progress for her...I am so happy. Anyways, here are some pictures of her thus far. I think I am going to try the "butt bath" tonight to clean off her legs...I got home from work super late last night and didn't have time to do it then.    
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