hello from a newbie, and some pigeon questions
I am in the process of writing a children's novel that features a feral city pigeon as its main character. I am here looking for accurate information on how city pigeons survive, and I hope you will help me find my answers. I have used other sources to do my research, but some questions are harder to answer than others so I hope you guys could help me out. BTW I already checked out the sticky on Ferral pigeons and found a lot of very useful information there. For example I now know that I need to make my MC older because I want him to be late to leave the nest (parents kick him out), and I had him at only 34 days old.
1. What materials do pigeons use to build their nests? I want to show a contrast between my main character and his brother. His brother uses what ever is available, such as used deli paper from a trash can (do you think this happens in real pigeion life?), but I want my main character to be a bit neurotic and want only the best and purest materials for his nest. Would they use grass, and leaves and green material that might be found in parks?
2. Do pigeons only build a nest after mating? Is there ever a time when they live alone (not in their parents nest) before they mate? If so, where do they have nests or are their sleeping quarters different from a typical nest. I am going to take some creative license here to make it work for my story, but I am still curious.
3. If you were going to feed feral pigeons what kind of seed and grain would you use?
4. What sense does the pigeon use to find food? For example, if I pigeon stucked his head into a bag of bird seed would the smell or sight of it be the first to alert him that it is food?
Last edited by cassique; 1st July 2008 at 04:14 PM. Reason: to add another question
I don't think there is much need for you to use creative license, since the plain facts themselves are astounding and varied. Pigeons do communicate with each other; they are individuals. This website is FULL of information on the idiosyncrasies of pigeons. There are observations here of ferals, rescued pigeons, hand-raised pigeons, pets, almost any variation you could come up with. My pigeon Wieteke recognizes his name when I use it in a casual conversation with my wife. Most of the time we are talking nonsense and he doesn't bother to acknowledge us; after all, we have such low I.Q.s in comparison with his.
One reason I felt I had to jump in and offer this caveat, this warning, is that many or most of the people who connect to this website are rescuing a pigeon and have no clue what to do to help the pigeon. (I am included in this group, but have since picked up a few tips from these forums).
Should you take too much license and have the pigeons eating micro-waved food, drinking wine or Champagne as opposed to beer, your future readers may incorporate some (unintended on your part) mis-information and possibly apply it in real life later on, to the detriment of the pigeons or birds.
Look at the effect the phrase "flying rats" (attributed to Woody Allen) has had on the public consciousness. An attempt at humor to help a movie along, with long-lasting dire effects. (I also like rats, and see no need to disparage them. They have their place in the grand scheme of things).
On an IVIS.org veterinary website, there recently was a picture of a nasty black-ringed gaping hole in the neck of a parrot(?) who had been fed micro-waved food.
A few examples which came to my mind.
Good luck with your book. My wife has done illustrations on a children's book she wrote about a mouse (Mimmelke the Mouse), text in German and later in Flemish or Dutch, but she needs to come up with a stronger story line. The mouse even rides on the bag of a bird, for an aerial view of his surroundings. I have helped her with it (and other attempts at books), so I know there is a lot of work to a good book. I also did editing and proofreading at a publishing company for two-and-a-half years part-time while in college (in the days of lead linotype).
Thorough research makes for a lovely book. A good imagination helps make it a success. The reader has to bring something to the piece of art to make it interesting to him; if all the facts are boringly laid out, one might as well be working on a telephone name/address/number directory. This applies to any piece of art, whether visual, auditory, tactile, or tasted. The artist has to bring sufficient detail and description, but suggestion is needed. Incorrect facts leave a bad taste in the mouth, assuming the reader completes the reading. Hans Christian Andersen is a perfect example of a storyteller for both adults and children. And I can't forget Dr. Seuss. If the parents like reading the book, they will read it to their kids. Or, so it was in the past. My father read Robert Lewis Stevenson's Treasure Island to me, and Edgar Allan Poe.
some art, cartoons, illustrations, pigeon photos, general nonsense
Last edited by Larry_Cologne; 1st July 2008 at 04:43 PM.
Thank you for your input. With the wide variety of pigeon lifestyles it might make this book a bit easier to write than I origionally thought.
This book is not factual by any means, but like you said, I want to paint the animals in the book in as honest and healthy way as I can without sacrificing the story. So, if I discover that no pigeon would ever build a nest before mating I will probably still pretend they do, because my pigeon character needs to start a life of his own, but romance and squabs are not a priority for him. However, if I learn that a pigeon would never eat a certain food, or that something is toxic to them, then I can easily rewrite the details to make it more pigeon-friendly. That's why I want to learn as much as possible, so I can flesh it out as best I can, without being irresponsible.
Last edited by cassique; 1st July 2008 at 07:29 PM.
BEST OF EVERYTHING WITH YOUR BOOK, CASSIQUE! WELCOME TO PIGEON TALK.
On behalf of the pigeons, thank you for wanting to make things as factual as possible without sacrificing the story line!
In the pigeon movie, Valiant, we all noticed that his mom fed him a worm. Pigeons do not eat worms...at least not how the feeding was depicted in the movie.
We all agreed that the next time a pigeon movie was made that they should check with "us" pigeon experts!
I'm sure you will find all the information you need to answer your pigeon questions.
I had heard that pigeons are not usually known for making a "big" nest, yet, I saw a pigeon at Arizona State University, Peter Pied Piper, construct the BIGGEST nest that even wowed the folks at Cornell Lab of Ornithology! There seems to be exceptions to every rule! I called him the "Frank Lloyd Wright" of the pigeon world!
Hope you find all the answers you seek.
Mr. Squeaks (who teaches me a LOT about pigeon psychology and rules my household with an iron beak!)
While apochryphal references to Bird's habits abound, few to none are likely to be either true, or, to represent any understanding of what is actually going on.
No Pigeon I ever saw or heard of, ever 'kicks' their young out-of-the-nest.
Pigeon parents will stop feeding a Baby or youngster who they feel is sick and going to die, and, one may suppose, that their reasoning is to recognise that they have no means to remedy the illness, and, that the process of acquiring food, is 'expensive'...and that a Baby who is slated to perish of illness, is better left be, for the parents to conserve resourses for theselves and or the sibling, or for their next Clutch, instead of spending them on a lost cause.
Now, these Babys or Youngsters do in fact end up not anylonger being 'in' the Nest, or even are found 'Marching' with tremendous determination for long distances, possibly, hoping they WILL find someone to feed and water them.
Often, the youngsters one does find along curbs or building's bases, are just such as this, and, who have wearied even after who knows how far they have walked or 'marched', and they do 'march' too, when determined.
Now, I can not say if in these cases, the parents had not in effect eased the sick Baby or Youngster 'out' of the Nest, or, if their withdrawl of feeding and watering of him, caused the youngster to decide for himself, to leave, by falling if need be, just on the chance that if he did, that something might improve, or, miraculously happen.
Many people like to evoke the idea of Bird's kicking Babys or younsters "out of the Nest", as if the youngsters were just being 'lazy' or mooching on their parents hospitality, but this is just people idiocy and projection of their own upbringing, or lack of understanding, or their way of imposing an idea onto something not there intrinsically, or evoed in order to bully their own teenagers with bad metaphors, whom they have raised badly and wish to be rid of for having raised the badly.
I have never seen any indication that a Pigeon fledgling was ever reluctant to 'leave' the Nest since they are not supposed to leave it untill they are ready in their own minds TO leave it, and it is important to realize, that their own estimations of being 'ready' to do so, are what decides the question of when they do leave...and in many cases, the fledgling had better be correct in his estimations of himself, or he can be in real trouble.
No one forces them, and, none I ever heard of or can imagine, would stall or wish NOT to leave once ready to do so.
The question of when they leave, and that they leave, is about being physically developed enough, muscularly and in fitness and strength, TO leave, and, importantly, to get "back".
They have to be ready to leave and to get back, in their own estimation, and, this will vary according to where and how the Nest is situated, and the demands it's location or height presents, since for one thing, the fledglings want to feel they will be able to return TO the Nest after their foray, for having flown from it to whatever landing or perch it may be, which their initial foray elected to try for.
Normally, they fledglings do not even 'leave' as if that were a single event or occurance...they progress in their developement, try various forays, and want to be 'back' in the nest for Night, and so on, progressing, gaining in muscle strength, gaining in distance trials, elevations, play, experient, developing further, and, at some point, the fledgling feels confident to spend his or her night someplace close by, and does not return to the Nest for night time.
This might go on for a week, or two weeks even, or it ight only go on for a few days - forays out into the imediate World, and, returning to the Nest however often.
The parents continue to feed and watert heir youngsters, in the Nest and in other various near-bye locations, untill the youngsters are flying well enough and strongly enough to accompany their parents enough times, to the parents' grazing and forraging and watering places, for the youngster to acquire the abilitys and confidences for pecking and feeding themselves, and show competance finding water and drinking by themselves, and once confident in these things, the parents ease off and the youngster does not ask his parents to feed and water him as much, and they both decide then in this graduated progression, to let the bond and dependance fade, and the youngster is then on his or her own, and, ideally, by their own confidence and deonstrated ability to do so.
During this phase, the fledglings also become socialized to their feral fellows, and acquire the modes of awareness, confidence, assertiveness, sense and responses which enable them to mingle and associate with other adult Pigeons, and to have reactions and observances important to their survival.
In effect then, at that point, the parent's job is 'done', and the parent-child relationship which had existed, ceases to have any observable form or actions to connect them.
The parents and the independant youngsters, are seperate at that point, and do not socialize or have gestures with eachother any more.
Fledgling Pigeons 'leave' the Nest in varying ways, and or in graduated ways, according to the logistical conditions and location of the Nest, and the kind of room the Nest provides, and, according to whether or not the parents elect to continue to use the Nest continuously, and thus have already laid their nest two Eggs in it...
In which case, it is not uncommon for the pre-fledglings or later fledglings not yet independant, to actually be so close to the Eggs in the Nest, as to be in fact sitting on them and incubating them for their parents.
In which case, the parents let them do so, and enjoy taking more breaks or liesures away from the Nest, than they would have been able to do otherwise.
'Baby' or Youngster or fledgling age Pigeons if they were to be 'kicked out of the Nest' would perish of privation...unless someone else 'adopts' them and feeds, waters and cares for them for them to grow up and Live.
This varies a great deal, according to what is available to them, and, also, according to individual's preferences or eccentricitys.
Usually, when a variety of materials are available, the materials elected will be slender, clean, and several inches long but can be longer.
Variout Plant stems, dry Grass 'runners' when in individual lengths, not too brachiated when of 'Johnson Grass' kinds, non-complex Twigs, Pine Needles, Broom Straw or the likes, clean longer 'Flight' Feathers, spent Kitchen Matches or other slender 'long' shaped things...small lengths of thin 'Wire' even.
Some Pigeons elect items which for some reason appeal to them, or, which they feel or find will appeal to their mate.
Usually the male is the more industrious and active in bringing items to his wife, which she has to approve of as he presents them to her one at a time, one per foray, as he shows up with whatever the item is.
So, he soon finds some ideas in her tastes and what indications she expresses about things he has so far brought.
The items must be clean in all cases, or they will not be elected.
The Pigeon ( regardless of gender ) when prospectively electing an item, will examine it somewhat, and shake it in a special way, vibrating it, sometimes setting it back down to double check it, before deciding for sure to try it and carry it to his or her mate.
Some Pigeons I have known, liked 'Keys', and had fifteen or twenty various Keys they had found, House Keys, Car Keys, Keys on Key Rings being maybe four or five as a bunch on a Ring, along with disused Flight Feathers, Pine Needles and other slender things.
Another Pigeon pair, for some reason liked empty Cigarette packages, 'flat' ones especially, and their Nest had possibly a dozen or more of these, all from 'soft packs'...all 'flat', and little else. Oh, I forgot, these two also had Paper Money, a $20.00, a $5.00 and a few $1.00s soe of them folded in half or in fourths.
Another pair I know, had several pounds worth of long Brass and Steel Wood Screws, Cotter Pins, slender Drill Bits, slender Taps, and other metal items, with little of anything else, but a few 'red' Cocktail Straws, for their Nest.
This of course was not good for the Eggs to be resting on.
Hair bunches which people pull from Combs or Brushes, Thread, String, dental floss people toss away, yarn scraps...these are also sometimes elected, but are dangerous or tragic, since the Pigeon parents or their Young tend to get these items tangled in their Toes and Wrists and with time and movement, the filliments tighten.
Last edited by pdpbison; 2nd July 2008 at 04:55 AM.
Usually, the clutch of two Babys, is one male, one female, far as I recall...
So a 'brother' would tend to occur from a prior or successive clutch.
Business Cards, yes...paper money, appearently at least sometimes ( as with other smallish paper things when thin or flat ).
Shredded Paper when slender, like Confetti, yes...
...disused Sandwhich wrappings, "No"...
[ quote]but I want my main character to be a bit neurotic and want only the best and purest materials for his nest. Would they use grass, and leaves and green material that might be found in parks?[/quote]
'Leaves' no...or it would be unusual anyway...or improbable.
Usually not 'green' material as far as I have seen, but dry or dessicated materials which are biologically inert and otherwise stable.
I do not believe a feral Pigeon would ever be 'neurotic', even in New York.
Go out at 'dawn' to places where the ferals graze or forrage...get as close as you can and just sit quietly and keep your hands and arms "still".
You can see it...
They are very earnest Ceatures, and, often, very serious and tough individuals who are able to endure and survive by the slender margains of wit and qualitys of attention and intenion.
In their World, there is little 'room' for anything which detracts from the essentials of operatively 'correct' awareness, and, operatively correct decision.
The penalty for distraction or introversion or 'worry', is death by inattention.
Pairs of Hens sometimes will build a Nest and lay four Eggs...where no 'Mating' ( if 'Mating' in this context is a euphemism for coitus ) has occurred.
I recently had a situation where two such Hens, 'adopted' a pre-fledgling age youngster and appearently invited him to their Nest, where even though he is too large for it, they sit ON him or closely next to him, and he in fact has been sitting on their Eggs while they take forays and breaks.
But as for your question, basically, 'No'...a prospective our courting pair will tend to at some point finalize their understandings, and, after however much enthusiastic coitus, the Hen will elect a place she feels would be good to build a Nest in, with whatever prospective places the male may have shown her which he had in mind, and, she sits there being all glowy and vivid, and the male starts finding things to bring to her...and thus begins the 'Nest' as such.
Most Pigeons are monagomous, and faithful.
Those who 'stray', usually will not find themselves in an enduring relationship.
'Playboy' males will seek to opportune on young Hens for pleasure, with no view of relationship.
Mature Hens who are in an otherwise monagomous 'marriage', may sometimes 'stray' with earnest and purpose, if they feel their mate has not been fertalizing her developing Eggs successfully, or, if she recognises he is not able to manage the coitus gesture logstically because of say, a bad Leg.
Such Hens are not straying for sport or pleasure or vanity, but, only to have Eggs which will be fertile, and, they try and be very circuspect in this so he does not find out.
A suitable robust 'Playboy' Male is usually elected, and, both understand no 'relationship' is implied to follow...and none is sought.
'Playboy' males do not tend to form relationships, or, if they do, the relationships fail, or he later decides he would prefer a stable and continuous arrange, and settles down.
Feral Pigeons, and likely their technically 'Wild' kin, do not tend to have 'Mates' till around two or three years of age...
Female Pigeons can be seen to regard prospective suitors with definite care and or criticality, ( or even to elect them or vie for them prior to the Male having shown any interest in them individually, at all ) and usully he has to show her places and resources which in effect are morally 'his', to demonstrate his effectiveness and judgement and creativity in knowing where foods and water are, knowing where safe places are for Nests being being out of the elements, and showing her his ideas for possible Nest sites he can defend and claim ( against others wishing to have the same site ) which are situated logistically to be in a desireable proximity to those resourses or amenities he or she values.
The Hen elects the Nest site, whether or not it happens to be among the actual prospective ones her mate had indicated as being within his claims of teritory or places familiar to him.
Possibly, there are instances where no agreement is reached, and how this is solved, I do not know.
'Nests', with respect to Pigeons, are the place and situation in which Eggs are lain and brooded, and, the resultant Babys, raised...
The parent who is doing their shift of brooding or Baby-sitting, sits alone ( usually ) while the other stands watch nearbye. Some may spend time together as one sits or as both sit close, but this is not the usual arrange.
The male tends to sit by day, and the hen at night, but sometimes one or the other will take a short turn in the middle of the other's shift, for the other to go take a little break.
Adult Birds or independant young ones who are on their own, do not sleep in 'Nests', unless as adults, they are nodding off a little while brooding Eggs, or while sitting on infant or young Babys.
Adult Pigeons do not seem to require very much sleep, and, are disposed to roost by the logistical constraints of Night, more than by those of wishing to sleep.
Pigeon Babys usually become endotheric around six or seven days of age, and are not sat on as much then, if at all...though individual parents will vary in their habits with this, as for whether they sit next TO the endotheric Babys, continue to intermittantly sit 'on' them, or stay with them closely, or having things so that one or the other parent is pretty much always there.
They are definitely each and every one an 'Individual'...
The Pigeon whose spouse is sitting on Eggs or Babys, will roost close by where he or she can see the Nest place, and, in their way, also, stand watch or guard.
Bachlor or Bachlorette Pigeons tend to spend their night-times among their fellows, on ledges or other high places, usually ones they can see out from well, so, in effect, they prefer to be high and inaccessable, and not enclosed or 'in' anything, usually.
Probably Widowed or Widower Pigeons also spend their Night Roosts among the younger Bachlors and Bachlorettes.
Nests on the other hand, can be decided to be built in enclosed places which are very private and hidden and which have no view at all sometimes.
Pigeons who find a situation safe and secure, ay elect to build Nests in plain sight and on the floor or ground, believing they are safe and not in any dangers to do so.
Pigeon Babys know very well how to stay 'in' the peramiter of the Nest, and they make every effort to poop outside what they construe to be the defining boundary of the Nest proper.
"Pigeon Mix" of one kind or another...
Or, general purpose 'Wild Bird Seed', 'Canary Seed', 'Finch Seed'...
Kales, Endives, Cilantro, Carrot or Beet 'tops'...
Last edited by pdpbison; 2nd July 2008 at 05:08 AM.
I do find they seem or be instinctively drawn to recognise tiny 'round' things as possible 'food' even as very young Babys.
They are afterall, primarily Granivorous, though they also enjoy to eat tender small Leaves and shoots and small fruiting bodys of low or bitter Weeds and other plants and low 'Greens'.
City feral Pigeons can end up being exposed at an early age ( and or in the desperation of their immediate post-fledglinghood's exigencies to find food at all, once seperated from their parents by accident or by initial appearances of success at managing on their own, ) to unsuitable foods, and, sadly, they may not have access to better, and do not travel far enough to find and learn of better.
City feral Pigeons who find or insist on wholesome diets ( at least here in Las Vegas ) can live well into their teens or late teens or more possibly...while those who live on dumpster leavings or fast food discards in parking lots or parks or sidewalks, probably do not live more than a few years.
Seeing a Pigeon pecking at discarded Sandwhich parts, fried chicken, run-over-half-eaten-haburgers, french fries, or other fast food things, does not mean these are in any way suitable foods.
'Bread' is at best barely sufficient to forstall starvation, and has hardly a fraction of the Nutrition which any wholesome whole Seeds will have.
So, other than that they are disposed to recognise small, whole, 'round' or round-elongate 'Seeds' as 'Food', I myself do not know what all else configures into their process of reasoning or experiment to try things which are not along those lines, other than that they will eat fresh 'Greens or 'Green' ( on-the-stem of the Living Plant ) Seeds, also.
As a parting note...
I have seen acts of Chivalry among the ferals, where, for instance, a mature but Handicapped Hen I have, still in her 'prime', when out for her forays de-jur, is sometimes pestered by 'Playboys' wishing to take fleeting advantage of her vulnerability.
She does not like this, and shows her displeasure unambiguously, but sometimes 'cringes' and hugs the Ground, which unfortunately encourages the very attention she does not want.
Two times now, in only a few weeks, I have seen an older Male, and on another occasion, a Middle aged one, trot up fast and bite the offending 'Playboy' and drive him off, to then pause and regard the little Hen either solemly or critically, and, to then slowly walk back and return to their grazing.
Some Pigeon Fathers are so into being Fathers, they will gladly adopt orphan or lost Babys ( when logistically possible to do ) and raise them with their own Babys, whether the age is quite the same or not, doting on them even to greater extents than they do their own, even to where the Hen - his 'Wife' as it were - was obviously NOT approving ( and would not feed or preen the 'new' Baby or Youngster ) and or ( after a few prior rounds, finally ) refuses to go along with it in any way at all ( anymore )...and in one case I know, she ultimately divorced him over the issue and went off with someone else..!
Mature feral Pigeons are generally very able, tender, and devoted Parents, very careing and patient with their youngsters, and take great pleasure in raising their Young and in the fledgling times of calling to their youngsters to fly to progressively farther or to more challanging places with 'Poppa' as they learn to grow into their independance with the parent's oversight and support.
Siblings tend to hang out together for quite a while once independant of their parents, but then eventually ( might be months, ) seperate unto their respective lives and cease showing up and leaving together to forrage and graze.
Last edited by pdpbison; 2nd July 2008 at 05:11 AM.
Thanks, Phil. That must have taken a lot of of time, but I really appreciate it. It as extremely helpful in so many ways. There are a few things I need to change in what I have written already, and this eliminated the need for a nest building scene (I have been agonizing over writing that chapter for days now). And by having him and his brother just "hanging out" with other young single pigeons I can get into the main plot of the story much quicker.
When I said, "kicked out of the nest" before, I didn't mean that they physically pushed him out for good. This book is meant for kids, so I made sure the parents were presented as caring individuals who feel it is what is best for him, rather than parents who are tired of him and push him out. I now have a better idea about what his life was like before his parents tell him "it's time" thanks to all of your useful information.
I signed up for pigeon watch through Cornell, hoping I would get more insight into the various personalities of pigeons, but I have not been able to find a flock nearby. We have tons of seaguls, hawks, mourning doves, cardinals, and other wild birds, but not so many rock pigoens in my neighborhood (and I don't want to put them in danger by feeding them in parking lots or any of the other few places I've seen them).
Thanks again for your help. I am printing this out and adding it to my file.
Last edited by cassique; 2nd July 2008 at 05:56 AM.
You might be interested to read my thread "Nesting in a plant pot" under Wild Feral Pigeons which develops the whole process from the time a couple of ferals started a nest on my balcony to the time the little ones were weaned and finally flew away. As I was not at all knowledgeable on pigeons I kept asking questions throughout all the process which were very kindly replied to by members of this forum. Many of your questions are "treated" there in a real "live" situation. Unfortunately the photos are no longer available. All this happened in 2006 starting the 9th July. It is a very entertaining story and you might find material for your book. Best luck with your book; Gladys
I sooo want to read that book!!
I can't really help with most of those questions I'm afraid, I keep my pigeons purely for fun and don't honestly know very much about them other than the important stuff.
I can however tell you that my pigeons made their nest out of sticks they pinched off of our compost heap and they also integrated a biro that I'd accidentally dropped in the shed. I didn't notice until the eggs hatched and the hen got off the nest, there was the pen, holding the side of the nest together hehe!
xX Georgina Xx
Gladys, I will definitely check out your thread.
Georgina, thanks for your encouragement. I really hope I finish the first draft by the end of the month. Right now I am fast drafting so I don't lose momentum, but that is easier to do when I have a lot of research and notes on file. BTW: What is a biro?
It was fun to get rolling like that...I had not expected it to roll-on as far as it did...
Bear in mind, ( unless a previous Nest is being used again, ) 'Nests' are begun with the sitting Hen of a 'Mated' pair, who is not yet laying, but whose Body is creating the Eggs which will be lain fairly soon...as her Body is creating the two Eggs, the Nest is getting built and even continues to get built after the Eggs are laid.
Some Nests are very minimal and sparse, just a few Feathers and other little things...others can be fantastic accumulations of twigs and other items ending up bigger than a large 'Sombrero' even.
Nests are not the recourse of Pigeons otherwise...they are made only for Babys to grow up in.
Pigeons do not built Nests for theselves...but rather, for having a special intentional place for safety and comfort for the Eggs to be brooded, and for the subsequent Babys to be raised.
Pigeon parents are very UN-like the vast overwhelming majority of people-parents...in that the Pigeon parents are not anxious, resentful, needy, coercive, or exploiting their children to appease their own unassayed and unresolved anxieties.
Pigeon parents are ingenuous...
Young and inexperienced Pigeons can sometimes be poor parents in various ways, but not out of temprement or resentment issues like people-parents tend to be.
The Pigeon parents never think that their Babys "owe" them anything, or are their indentured servents or 'chattel'.
There is never any censure or criticality or pejoritive accusations.
Ultimately, there is almost no comparison in terms of quality and emotional Health, between the two.
Pigeon parents are not 'clingy' and emotionally enmeshed with their 'children', and do not sabotauge their childrens emotions in order to make the children 'needy' and 'dependant'...to then punish them for not leaving sooner.
Huge, enormous differences, as far as mental health and quality...
Not from them I don't think...
Far as I recall, they were only interested in catagorizing 'colors' and Feather Patterns...
Ultimately, Pigeons are very similar intrinsically to what decent, emotionally healthy people would be like...or, would be like if they were to find themselves in a small Bird-Body, and obliged to do things within those peramiters.
Domestications in their case, and our own, depending on circustances, can occasion degredations of these intrinsic propensities.
They are very close to our own social ways, and have individual characters every bit as much as people do.
Last edited by pdpbison; 2nd July 2008 at 03:50 PM.