No more feeding pigeons

[SerendipityCA]

I called about my fledgling that I had taken to WildCare in Marin, and they said they put him down. Apparently he had an infection called "crick" that was advanced and had taken over his crop and throat, and in addition he had a "degloved" wound on the back of his neck that was quite deep.

I wish I had taken more of an interest in him up there on the fire escape, but after one of his parents was killed a month ago (July 29), he survived and I figured the other parent was feeding him. I wasn't even sure he was a baby to be honest, though I had heard squeaks from that area a month earlier, and figured there was a baby there somewhere. But I couldn't really tell that he was a baby because all I ever saw peeking over was his head.

I feel rotten about it.

ETA: I looked up "crick" and I must have heard her wrong. Do you think she said "trich?"

[Jay3]

I'm sorry. You can't blame yourself. If we learn anything from an experience, then it wasn't wasted. I'll bet the next time, you will investigate closer. But take that learning away with you. Don't beat yourself up over what we can not change now.

[SerendipityCA]

Poor little guy, he didn't have much of a life. He spent it all on that damned fire escape and watched one of his parents get killed and then the body lay there for a couple of hours before I happened on it and took it away. I don't know how he got off the fire escape and ended up standing in the carport but thank heavens I looked out my window and at least could scoop him up to "safety" right away before another tenant saw him. And he was standing right in front of the "killer truck" (the truck that killed his parent). If that person had come out and gotten into his truck, I don't know that the bird would have had the strength to move away, and the guy wouldn't care, he'd just run over him.

I'm a bit tired of giving pigeons a good death though - I've brought about 6 birds over the years up to WildCare and not one has survived.

[Jay3]

Originally Posted by SerendipityCA

Poor little guy, he didn't have much of a life. He spent it all on that damned fire escape and watched one of his parents get killed and then the body lay there for a couple of hours before I happened on it and took it away. I don't know how he got off the fire escape and ended up standing in the carport but thank heavens I looked out my window and at least could scoop him up to "safety" right away before another tenant saw him. And he was standing right in front of the "killer truck" (the truck that killed his parent). If that person had come out and gotten into his truck, I don't know that the bird would have had the strength to move away, and the guy wouldn't care, he'd just run over him.

I'm a bit tired of giving pigeons a good death though - I've brought about 6 birds over the years up to WildCare and not one has survived.

I don't know, but I think I'd maybe think twice about bringing another pigeon there. Doesn't sound like they try REAL HARD to help them. You could probably do better yourself with the help of the people of experience on P.T. they always have so many good suggestions, and are always willing to help. Think about it next time. Don't think I'd bring another one there. It would have to be a last resort.

[SerendipityCA]

Originally Posted by Jay3

I don't know, but I think I'd maybe think twice about bringing another pigeon there. Doesn't sound like they try REAL HARD to help them. You could probably do better yourself with the help of the people of experience on P.T. they always have so many good suggestions, and are always willing to help. Think about it next time. Don't think I'd bring another one there. It would have to be a last resort.

To be honest, that thought has crossed my mind after the last couple that they euthanized. They have a wonderful reputation and do good work but I wonder whether they would go to the lengths I would, for instance, for a pet.

I donated $100 this time hoping to motivate them to help the bird. I don't know...they do seem really caring, and the person who described the infection of the crop and throat said that while this condition is treatable, this was a very advanced case.

[Jay3]

I'd still think twice about it. Or, at least I might bring him in, but wouldn't leave him there. I'd have to bring him in where I wouldn't have to leave him. I wouldn't trust anyone that I didn't know well to leave them a pigeon. Pigeons just don't seem to be top priority with many people who are supposed to care about helping animals. At least, that is the way I feel.

[SerendipityCA]

I went to the building next door and knocked on the door of the studio apartment whose fire escape the pigeon had been living on. The woman let me in (mid-30's I think) and when I asked her about the pigeons she said that they're disgusting, she has mites in her apartment, she and the neighbor who share that fire escape have both complained to the management about them but all they did was put mesh around the fire escape so the pigeons couldn't nest UNDER it. So because there's solid ground under the fire escape there on the first floor (it's over the garage), she thinks that the pigeons preferred to nest there so they continued to do so even after the mesh prevented them from nesting under the fire escape (between it and the garage roof). Unlike my lightwell which could be walled in from the sky, hers is double-wide and adjacent to the driveway of my building, so even if they put mesh over the whole thing from the sky, pigeons could still walk in from the street, or via the carport area in the back.

Anyway, she was very happy to hear that the pigeon was gone, and said "Good" when I said he had been badly injured. When I told her I had taken him to a bird sanctuary she said "Why didn't you just put him in the garbage?" I said "He was alive!" and she said "he would have died soon enough."

I asked her a couple of times if she had hit him and she said no, she tried to avoid them, but she would have if she had had the courage. But she didn't even like to look out her window at him.

She let me look out the window and I saw a nest, and also a dead baby that was completely dessicated - just skeleton, skin and feathers. She let me take that one away in a garbage bag. I couldn't reach the nest though, and she wouldn't have let me walk out there onto the fire escape and walk back through her apartment because my shoes would have been dirty.

Poor little guy. He spent his whole life on a 5' x 2' fire escape and never knew the joy of flight. I so wish I had rescued him one of those many times I walked by and saw his silly little head sticking out and looking down at me. I'd talk to him but that's all.

Both of the people whose apartments he lived outside, hated him. She said "pigeons are disgusting, they're rats with wings." But I have to think they didn't hurt him, that he just fledged and was ill and couldn't fly far and some predator got him. Who knows. The person I talked to yesterday said the wound was jagged, he might have gotten caught on something though I absolutely can't see what that could have been. Or maybe a cat or skunk got him. But they would have killed him, not just wounded him. Maybe it was a crow.

Anyway I have to stop thinking about him and move on. I really think I will not be able to feed behind the building much longer. The guy who was her neighbor on the fire escape, his apartment is the twin of mine (our buildings are identical)...and it looks out over the carport area just like mine does, so if he sees me feeding out there he WILL complain.

I live in an area that has so much foot traffic, and is so dense with people, I really don't know where to relocate them to. The park across the street would have its own set of problems.

Maybe I should put the food up at night where people can't see me.

[Jay3]

I can understand how frustrating this whole thing is, but if you keep feeding, and attracting them to that area, those foolish people who hate them will keep complaining, and the management may end up poisoning them. I'd be careful, and please try to think about what is best for the birds. It is important that they get enough food, but not at the chance of being poisoned in the end. Imagine how badly you would feel if you were responsible for the death of the whole flock. And poisoning is a horrible way to go. It may be better if you just don't feed them in that area. I'm sorry.

[SerendipityCA]

Jay3, I totally get what you're saying. You said more or less the same thing a couple of days ago, up-thread, and I didn't really focus on it. But you're right. If I keep feeding, more and more birds will come, and they'll breed more, and eventually there will be 100 birds hanging around the back area of the building. Inevitably, some will wander down the driveway and be hit by cars, and somebody will complain about the poop, or something. I know that both building managers are pretty hands-off (the woman next door was complaining that aside from putting mesh down and spray-cleaning two years ago, the manager hasn't responded to her and her neighbor's repeated complaints)...but that doesn't mean some individual wouldn't take it on himself to put out poison.

To describe accurately what's going on right now, there are about 30 birds, and they hang out on the roofline at the back of the buildings. Nobody sees them there, except maybe third-floor apartment dwellers in the buildings that face my building at the back, but the birds are 10 feet higher, and not close, so there would probably not be any complaints about that. They fly down and eat the seed that I throw up to the carport roof, don't stay, then they fly away. I don't know where they roost or where they have babies. So their presence here so far as gone under the radar.

But if they start deciding that this is a good place to raise their babies, because this is where they eat, and if many more come to the buffet, then we really would have a problem.

There were pigeons for 3+ years having babies in my lightwell, and the lightwell next door, and they didn't do anything until they put mesh over the sky access. Probably fewer than 6-10 pigeons total in both buildings combined.

But...what you're basically saying is, I am CREATING a problem, if not now, then somewhere down the line in the future (and sooner rather than later)...even though I think I am being kind by feeding them.

Do you think I should just stop, cold turkey?

[Jay3]

It's really not my place to tell you what to do. I'm just trying to make you aware of what could happen. I had maybe ten pigeons hanging around a few years back, because I hang out feeders for the songbirds, and there is always some seed thrown to the ground by the birds searching for their favorite seeds. I would see them out there in the heat of summer, and the cold of winter, on my roof. So I felt bad for them, and started tossing down some seed for them. It didn't take long for their numbers to grow. Now there are probably 40 or 45 in the flock. The more you feed, the more they will come. That will happen there too. It's just what happens.They breed and bring their offspring with them. And they breed often. I don't know. What do you think will happen when they begin to multiply? Will it finally come to a head with the managers, or the owners of the building? Because if it does, the pigeons will lose. If you stop feeding them, it would probably be better, and kinder, to start cutting back on the amount of feed that you put down for them. Do this for a while, then cut back again. Keep cutting back until you are not giving them enough to really depend on. This way, they will have to (hopefully), find food elsewhere. I know how you feel. I always worried about whether or not they would find enough to eat if I wasn't feeding them. That's why I now have about 40 or 45. But, hopefully, there is some park or something around your area where people do feed the pigeons. They will probably find these places in time, that's why it is better to cut back gradually. To give them time to find these other places. They must already know of these places, because you are not feeding them enough to survive on just what you give them, are you? I wouldn't just stop. I'd do it gradually. I wish you luck in whatever you decide to do. Not an easy decision, I know.

[SerendipityCA]

Jay3, I appreciate everything you post. You're more experienced than I am and you can see how this might unfold. And if the purpose is to help the pigeons, then I have to consider whether, in the long run, what I am doing will help or hurt.

Already in the past couple of months the number who hang around has gone from maybe 5 to 30.

Today when I walked up to the cafe there were about 8 of them hanging out on the roof of the corner building. I walked up to the diagonal corner and stood there for a second, and they all took flight instantly and flew down to where I feed, just behind where I was standing. Then three more showed up and I fed them all.

Later at the cafe my original bird who got me into all this, Stumpy, showed up. He was late to lunch, so I tied up my dog so she wouldn't follow me, showed Stumpy the packet of seeds, and cut across the street and around the corner and Stumpy followed me instantly.

You know, Stumpy used to have darker feathers that looked kind of ratty and greasy. Today, I was sure it was Stumpy because he has a scar on the back of his neck, is missing his right foot, and is missing a couple of toes (talons?) on the left foot. But his feathers were lighter grey, and he looked plumper. I wonder whether it's because of the seed I'm feeding him?

Anyway, I have been feeding one handful per two birds. I don't know how much each bird needs per day, I posted asking once but didn't get a reply. My intent isn't to give them everything they need for the day, just to improve their nutrition and help them along. I bought a 50# bag of pigeon mix at a store across the Bay. I'm about halfway through it.

[Jay3]

I thought about you today when I went out to feed the birds and looked at the large flock on my roof. Then I remember how it used to be about 10. I do know how you feel. I too, worry about them. I always care about animals that have no one to care. Like the ferral cats I see all over the place. Sometimes life is sad. No getting around it. Or the deer that we are chasing out into the roadways because of all the building of new homes taking up the land that used to be their environment. Or the songbirds that shared these same spaces. We humans are responsible for many wrongs on the part of animals. It sometimes makes me very sad. I too hate to see an animal struggling just to get by. I honestly can't tell you what the answer is. Wouldn't it be wonderful if you could feed your little flock forever, and it wouldn't mushroom out of control?

[SerendipityCA]

Thanks Jay3! I guess we're all "birds of a feather" on this forum - we flock together to share our love of all living things.

I did feed today, but put out a little less. I also fed my guy Stumpy up at the cafe. When I showed up he came down and hung out in the bus stop in the street waiting for me. I can tell it's Stumpy because of - well, the stump! - and the missing toes and the scar on the back of the neck. But his feathers used to be dark grey and greasy looking, and now he's a lighter grey and more sleek and not so dirty-looking. Do you think that's due to better nutrition, or is it just seasonal? Anyway, he was pretty impatient and flew off around the corner a couple of times to wait for me where I feed, but I took my time. Finally he came back and waited with me, and when I left he was so happy, he flew after me and got a good nosh. Him and eight of his buddies. They're all on to me there too!!!

I also do feral cat rescue and I'm lucky to live here in San Francisco because the SPCA has a Feral Fix program. They'll lend you a trap, and you can bring the cat in a trap to be fixed and vaccinated for free, and then either tame it and get it a home (not easy after age 8 weeks old, though I've done it with much older feral cats), or you can release it back to where it came from. And hopefully someone will feed it (you, maybe!)

There's a national advocacy group for feral cats with lots of good info about TNR (Trap, Neuter, Return). www.alleycat.org. There's also a yahoogroups list called [feral_cats] with TONS of experienced people and great files organized to cover any topic you might need information about.

If you do see them around your neighborhood, it would be great if you would trap them and get them fixed at least. Maybe you could put together a neigborhood group? I always wonder what happens to outdoor cats in the winter in cold climates like yours, in Massachusetts. But just like with feral pigeons, if you feed a feral cat and don't get it fixed, you're just making them healthy enough to make more babies who will be born homeless, so that's not good either.

[Jay3]

Thanks for the info. I do know what you mean about feeding them and then they just breed and bring more babies into the world. We have a crazy neighbor who feeds them, and leaves the food out, attracting skunks and rats. I have had a lot of problems because of her. I tried to convince her to go halves with me and get the females (at least) fixed, but she wouldn't. She's nuts, and she enjoys having them outside waiting for her to feed them. I told her that it was being cruel to them to let them keep breeding. It doesn't matter to her that they are sick with no one to bring them to a vet, and cold in the winter. I hate people like that. We have tried trapping them, but they won't go near the traps because she feeds them. They would have to be very hungry to enter a trap, but because of the food she leaves out, they're just not hungry enough. Sad. Thanks for the link.

[SerendipityCA]

Hey Jay3,

Well I should have known you wouldn't have sat by and done nothing about the cats, I'm really encouraged that you tried.

I think you probably COULD trap them, but of course you're competing with their regular food supply so it would take some ingenuity. One thing cats can't resist is KFC - a few warm bits in a trap will draw them like a honeypot. Then off to the vet and get them snipped. Females need 3-5 days recovery inside their traps because the sutures dissolve when wet. Males, 1-2 days. You can just put shredded newspaper in the back of the trap (NOT litter, as that might get stuck in the incision), food and water in the front, cover with lots of blankies so they're warm and feel like they're in a little lair, maybe put the whole thing on cardboard or something so they're not resting on a cold garage floor.

Does the woman watch them eat, or could you take away the food after she leaves it?

Anyway if you're serious about getting them fixed, and I think that's an excellent idea, then join feral_cats over at yahoogroups and post about the problem. There are so many wise and experienced people over there, they could brainstorm with you to work around your nutty neighbor.

And as for feral cats, do you know what I call someone who feeds them and doesn't fix them? Yup, an outdoor breeder. Bad.