Nooti - Question

[Maggie-NC]

Hi Nooti, I have been reading the article that I think you wrote about "Handfeeding Help by Helen in England" that is a sticky in the Resources forum.

I don't know if you've had a chance to read my recent thread "Be Careful what you wish for" but we have a hatchling that is 3 days old. We have been feeding it Exact formula and each day I add Benebac (a type of probiotic) to her feed but I would like to switch to yogurt for not only this little one but the other 15 babies that we're feeding too.

You mention using "natural" yogurt. Will a flavored variety do - like vanilla? We're having a problem finding the "plain" unflavored. Also, when I mix the Exact for the 12 babies I do it for 4 at the time and there is about 1/2 cup Exact from which I feed them. About how much Yogurt could I add? Can I add it at every feeding (3 x day)? Also, if I add, say, 2 cc per half cup will that affect the warmth of the formula that much?

One last question for future use. You mention that the first feeding for a hatchling should be 1 ml of yogurt or probiotic. How do you get the yogurt warm enough without destroying the live cultures? Also, if you use a powdered probiotic do you mix that with just room temp water?

Many thanks in advance.

[Pigeonpal2002]

Hi Maggie,

Good questions you've asked about the yoghurt and how to warm without destroying the live bacteria. I am confused about this as well because if heat kills the bacteria, then wouldn't the bacterium be killed and pointless once ingested by the pigeons?

I would think that there is a difference between storing the products to keep them alive but that heat doesn't kill them once inside the body. Hopefully we'll get some input from Helen and others.

[JGregg]

There's a recipe for a crop milk relpacement on the International Dove Society page. It looked good to me.

http://www.internationaldovesociety....es/macmilk.htm

I'd let to yougurt warm to room temperature and give the amount you want to administer to the babies, not mixed in their food. You'll want to use a yogurt with a live culture (acidophilus).

My bad for not reading the question!

[Maggie-NC]

Bumping up in case Nooti missed it. Also, have another question. Of the 8 squeakers that are now eating on their own, is it time to start giving them grit. I worry that the usual Kaytee grit that we give our grown birds may be too large and may hurt them.

Thanks

[Pigeonpal2002]

Hi Maggie,

I think Helen is quite busy with her wedding plans and she mentioned been sick over the past little while in another post. Hopefully she will answer your question.

From my own experience, grit doesn't seem to be as necessary as we've become accustomed to believe. I had a discussion about grit with my vet last time I was there. She too feels that grit isn't as important as we think.

I'm not sure how I feel about this whole subject but my own hand reared youngsters (Lucy & Ricky) didn't start eating grit until they were at least 3 months old and they didn't seem to suffer any ill effects from having none. Later on, they started eating it like no tomorrow and in my poop thread, "poops, what do they really mean", you will see the end result of excess grit eating.

Today, they don't consume very much grit, and seem to do well without much. I have a dish of oyster shell, red grit and granite grit available for them at all times, but the levels never seem to go down

[Lovebirds]

Originally Posted by Lady Tarheel

Bumping up in case Nooti missed it. Also, have another question. Of the 8 squeakers that are now eating on their own, is it time to start giving them grit. I worry that the usual Kaytee grit that we give our grown birds may be too large and may hurt them.

Thanks

Maggie, I don't give my babies grit until I wean them around 25 to 27 days old. They will eat it at that age. BUT..........mom and dad go nuts for it while raising the youngsters so I'm sure they are getting it then. Don't remember how old these 8 are, but you could put some in a bowl. If they want it, they will eat it and it won't hurt them and then they may just ignore it.

[Trees Gray]

Hi Maggie,

I'm sorry to interupt here, I wish I had seen your post earlier.

I make a home made kefir, and I can tell you, the kefir culture actually continues to multiply in the milk we use to make it, usually about 75 to 80 degrees.

First I have to bring the milk itself to almost boiling, because this kills any bad bacteria that will compete with the good bacteria in the culture. Then I let it cool for a half an hour, so it is still very warm. then i add the culture and it multiplies, and thrives in the warmth.

I think it is okay to heat it, as long as it is just warm, or add it to the formula once it is room temperature.

Kefir is very superior to yoghurt as it has many more beneficial cultures then yoghurt and it is best for small babies. Kefir can be eaten by children at 6 months of age. Acidopholis is not produced in the human intestines until 5 years of age, and kefir does not contain it.So, this is best for young ones.

If you would like me to get you some let me know, it takes a few batches to get a good one, but after the first three batches it is rich, thicker and matures well. I have used it well on rehab birds, it is best put in formula as it is quite messy to hand feed, but it gives quick results.

If you can find a plain yoghurt, with absolutely no sugar or flavorings, that would be best, but I myself do not recommend anything that doesn't come from a health food store. The stuff at the grocery stores has way to much sugar to be even good for you.

[feralpigeon]

Hi Maggie,

I don't know what the grocery stores are like in your area, but the ones here all carry large containers of plain yoghurt. Just can't get the small containers in plain format.

Brad, I stopped giving granite grit to my birds, because several months after them having some, DD vomited up a couple of pieces of granite grit. She didn't vomit on a regular basis, only the couple of pieces that came up that one time. It made me worry that this could cause problems.

fp

[Maggie-NC]

Oh, thank all of you so much. I 'm in unknown territory with regard to giving the babies probiotics with their Kaytee but I want to do everything I can to keep them growing and healthy.

What I've been doing is adding the plain yogurt at every feeding. FP, we did finally find some in the large containers and are starting on our second container right now. I hope the acidophilis in it won't cause a problem down the road. Every 3rd day, I stop the yogurt for one meal and give them the Benebac that we've used before. It is a type of probiotic. We just recently got in an order that had Pro-Bios in it. Do you think it would be ok to give them this from time to time? The package doesn't state how much but the Benebac directions call for about l/8 tsp.

Treesa, thank you for setting my mind at ease about the temperature of the formula. I will check the health food stores tomorrow for the yogurt without sugar. I googled the kefir and what I found was that it can be obtained from health food stores also. I was also amused that "Answers.com" also described it as being slightly alcoholic so if I get some tipsy babies I'll let you know. I appreciate so much the offer but let me see what I can find here first.

I'll hold off on the grit for right now because it does worry me a little since they're so young.

Again, thank you all. It is so nice to have friends you can turn to.

[Pigeonpal2002]

Originally Posted by Lady Tarheel

I hope the acidophilis in it won't cause a problem down the road. Every 3rd day, I stop the yogurt for one meal and give them the Benebac that we've used before. It is a type of probiotic. We just recently got in an order that had Pro-Bios in it. Do you think it would be ok to give them this from time to time? The package doesn't state how much but the Benebac directions call for about l/8 tsp.

Hi Maggie,

The benebac is a probiotic/acidophilus but for birds specifically, if there is such a thing. Probiotics/acidophilus are interchangeable and mean the same thing. These are living "good" bacteria that are in all living creatures.

My vet sells the benebac and it's been mentioned before that avians require different probiotics that they can use in their higher body temperatures. The jury isn't out yet on that one, but I feel you're doing everything right here. There are no worries about over dosing on these natural things that all creatures harbour in their gut/intestines and need to be healthy.

[Maggie-NC]

Brad, again thank you. Like I said, using probiotics is very new to me and I still have a lot to learn so thank you and everyone else for helping me.

[Pigeonpal2002]

Hi Maggie,

N/P for my input. The thing is, that the more different and varied selection of bacterium provided through an acidophilus/probiotics, the better...at least that is the theory.

Apparently, birds, mammals, fish and reptiles all require different phylums of bacteria to colonize their digestive systems in order to digest the different organisms they each consume.

I'm still waiting myself to hear from others whether it matters if it's a human probiotic vs. a specific one for each species family that matters. But the bottom line with all of this is, either it will help or it won't...depending on several factors.

The ULTIMATE bottom line is, either it will help or it will do nothing but it WON'T harm the bird by giving various phylums of acidophilus/probiotics. What can't be utilized will be flushed from the body or excreted naturally.

[Feefo]

Helen is having problems with her broadband router and can't access the site, she asked me to post this for her:

Hi Maggie - sorry I missed your question - that's really bad of me. I do apologise.
I use powdered probiotic and add to pre-boiled and cooled water. I also use an active enzyme powder which I add to each feed for the first week which really helps digestion.
Plain yoghurt can be found here in the UK in any supermarket, but health food stores will have it without a doubt. I have never given it a thought about using flavoured because I've never felt the need to.
I have to say that adding active enzymes is more important during the first week than probiotics because babes cannot produce their own until a week old so they rely on what they receive from their parents.
For live natural bacteria from yoghurt you would only need a very little with each feed - at a guess about half a teaspoon increasing to a teaspoon as they get older. Once a day should be plenty. If you add it to the formula it should not affect the temperature very much.
Live bacteria is at its best at body temperature so warming up to that temp will not destroy the bacteria. Keeping it in the fridge just slows down their life cycle - in effect keeping the food fresh so to speak. That's all.
Sorry I can't get on to the site, my broadband router occasionally has tantrums with this site and today is one of those days. Will have to send this via another member.



Helen at Wild-Life-Line

[Trees Gray]

I don't want to be a pain here, but I must clarify something:

While acidopholis is a probiotic it is not the same strain as what is found in kefir. Kefir carries a variety of friendly bacteria that ARE NOT mucus forming,better for those that suffer allergies, and youngsters. Kefir is much easier digested then yoghurt and is highly recommended for children under 5, and also for young pigeons.

Maggie, I would continue to alternate as you are doing as variety is better under the circumstances, and it is the spice of life. You are doing such a wonderful job with the little ones, and they are thriving!

I also give enzymes to those birds under a week as well as calcium and I am sure it helps the wee little ones.

[Maggie-NC]

Thank you all again. Cynthia I really appreciate you contacting Nooti and forwarding her message. I know nothing about enzymes so I have some reading to do to learn.

Treesa, I sure hope the babies continue to thrive. And, I had not even thought of giving them calcium! I really believe the yogurt is helping. Although I had used Benebac for sometime, it was only recently that I realized it is a probiotic. I had never heard anyone on the forum mention it as a probiotic but my rehabber friend had told me it was very good for birds so I'll continue as is.

Thank you again.