trying to find the best solution for baby; long rambling post

[sdreamcatcher@g]

since the minute my mom and i found this lovely little pigeon, my mind has been racing about the future. when it became apparent that the seizures were indeed gone, i realised this little guy (or girl, i still dont know?) was going to be here a while. and ive already started agonising over his or her future. i honestly dont know what to do. i dont think release in this neighborhood would be wise, since there is the danger of cars and people. there is a park not far off, but again, near heavy traffic and around prople. there is also the constant threat of hawks; we do have a young coopers hawk. the lot we found him/her in is only a couple of blocks away. i have to admit im not sure where his/her flock hangs out, but with all the traffic.....course this all makes me feel guilty, since this baby will never see his/her parents agian, and they will never know if (s)he made it. im guessing pigeons have a family structure of sorts?

i had read about people who release a flock at a time, and i like that idea, but have no idea how i would find someone like that. after reading of another members difficulties in denver, im not so sure this bird would be safe in this city. i have very limited transportation, as i dont drive, so if i did find someone theyd have to pick up the little sweetie.

all this of course, is me worrying way ahead of myself. i believe with his/her leg injury, its going to be a while before i can even consider release. and of course he/she will need to practice flying before relase as well. he/she is already becoming restless, so im going to take him/her into another room and at least hop around. id get pretty restless in such a tiny "room" as well!

then there is the other option; keeping him or her as a pet. i have to admit i am trying not to get too attached, and not let him/her get too attached to me, but its hard when i go in to change food and water, and not react when (s)he attacks/nibbles me! i do talk to and sometimes pet him/her, after all, pigeons are social creatures and need that contact, right? ive moved him/her out to this room, because its warmer, and there is more activity, with Kachina flying around and me back and forth all the time. so more stimulation. (s)hes high enough that the cat and dogs cant see him/her, and visa versa, because i dont want him/her getting used to potential predators if (s)he is released.

its amazing what these birds can do to one! ive rescued other wild birds; english house sparrows, a blue jay, a couple of robins who were also hard to release because they were so sweet. i had an injured english house sparrow for at least 6 weeks who had suffered a head injury and couldnt even perch. he was always very wild, so id set out his cage and his mate and their kids from that season would come visit every day. i know he made it, cause id see him every so often. he would land right above me (out of reach, of course!), and talk to me. i knew it was him cause he always had a bit of a forward tilt, left over from the injury. but he raised more babies and was around at least a couple more seasons. the blue jay was so wild i released him before he was eating on his own, because he literally too scared to eat. i had him in the cage, and a pair of jays came over to see him (i swear they checked that whole cage to see how they could spring the baby!!). i took the chance, releasing him in our backyard, a few blocks from where he was originally found, and the pair we had hanging around adopted him. i know they fed him, even though their little ones were still in the nest.

anyway, this is my ramble for the day, worrying about what is best for this sweet little baby, who we originally figured needed to go quietly in a home wher (s)he was loved and cared for, and not a cold, hard parking lot all alone.

[sdreamcatcher@g]

if anyone can help with whether hes a he or shes a she; i have to at least name this baby; no harm in that

[Poulette]

I was feeling the same way with my last rescued pigeon. I let him the choice to go several times... but he always comes back at our door. (For my secret happiness)

Suz.

[Trees Gray]

Time has a way of taking care of things.

He is still a youngster and needs time to heal and mature. Once he does, it will be easier to make a decision. ..and as Suz did, maybe baby will make the decision for you.

Has the leg been looked at by an avian vet?

[sdreamcatcher@g]

yeah, i hope so. i figure its gonna be a few weeks till (s)hes able to stand well, fly, land, navigate. i personally wouldnt have a problem if (s)he decides to stay


looks like its the foot, and not the leg, like i originally thought. the part of the foot where the toes meet is swollen; i noticed it when i took him/her out today. no, i havent been able to get to the vet; finances are a bit tight right now. i took some pictures of the leg/foot today so will try and post those later. other then the slight swelling, the foot and leg look good, no redness, no cuts or signs of infection. (s)he is also holding it down a bit lower then before, so im hopeful that its just a sprain and soon enough (s)he will put weight on it.

[pdpbison]

Hi sdreamcatcher@g,


Yahhhh...post some close ups of the Foot, the 'swelling' of the knuckles there where the toes meet. They walk on their fingers/toes in effect, like if you bent your fingers back, so your palm were perpendicular, so the wrist is up from there...and walked on that that way.

Sprained hips or thighs or legs one way or another, are common, and will appear just as this otherwise, with a relaxed Foot and leg being held up. Usually a couple weeks and all is well again.

This is of course a young Pigeon yet, who is accepting you as their stand-in parent and caretaker. They look quite happy and secure in the images there.

For now, of course i nteract with them all you like, preen them, cuddle them, praise them, admire them...spend time with them in various ways...


Later, it is natural for them to grow up and to assume airs of independance and to join the wild Worlds if allowed to do so. The problem most raisers run into with feral youngsters later, is that they do not sequentially introduce the Bird to other feral/wild Pigeons or flock society, so that, when they try and do what they feel is a 'release', it is too sudden and discontinuous for the Bird to know what to do or how to do it, and if the Bird is nervous or intimidated, or does not leave, they then think the Bird wants to stay with them. Which is not quite the whole truth of the matter.

One generally does best to begin now or to begin early when possible, to be with one's young Pigeon while it gets to meet feral/wild others while grazing Seeds. Yours is of the age where this was begun with it's parents, and likely it got seperated from them and found privation and injury.


But, anyway, the ideal for them, is slightly before they can even fly, to set them with wild others, with one staying close to them so they see one is superviseing and watching over them, in the out of doors for them to begin to acquire the feral modes and society familiarities...and they are always intimidated and nervous the first few times, no matter if supervised by a person-parent or by their own biological Pigeon-Parents...and after a few times, they are comfortable and easy and pecking away with the rest of them.

The danger of course, for us, is if the young Pigeon flys away prematurely...so...somehow, all of this is to be weighed.

If allowed the society of wild or feral others, indoors or out, almost all youngsters once flying, soon become "wild" as can be, no matter how close, comfortable, tender, intimate and happy they had been with us otherwise.

I have been through this many many times...Lol...

if one raises one without their being exposed to feral others, then it is different, and the Pigeon youngster will not tend to become of 'wild' modes and aspect.

And almost all the Babys I have raised this year, instead of the usual thing of me watching over them outside for a few progressive sojournes of their initial socializeing with the feral flock, like I used to do, now, since I had some overlapping stays of WILD adults in free roam in here after their initial convelscence, the Adults in effect induce in the youngsters, or impart to them the feral modes of being, so that they ALL are very wild and will have nothing to do with me...! Too, I know they hamm t up also for fun, but it is also in earnest IN how much they hamm it up.

Lol...

I have in fact some Wild/feral Adults presently, out of cage-time convelescence for broken Wings, who are in fact quite friendly and calm. I can pick them up if I do it slowly and ask first, and they do nor flee or complain. They fly now, and are in the phase after some weeks of cage time, for getting their strength and muscles abck or otherwise finishing up on getting over their injuries.

These individuals would not 'teach' youngsters those modes of being like some others have done...so...it is a matter of the individual also. But I know these adults, once in the world again, would not let me pick them up, no matter how nicely I might ask..!

I liked the 'old' method better...when I could raise Baby Pigeons, and see it all through to their release, with sequences of feral-flock-socializeing that I watch over...

Once ALL the present ones are gone, then, maybe, I can have the old ways back again!


Phil
Las Vegas

[sdreamcatcher@g]

heres the latest photos; two are close ups of his/her foot:





http://photobucket.com/albums/y51/2m...nfoot002wm.jpg

[sdreamcatcher@g]

thanks, phil. i couldnt help but cuddle him/her earlier this afternoon; (s)he seemed to enjoy the attention. if i do release, it cant be in this neighborhood. the pigeon flocks dont come to our yard, and the dangers of cars and predators are too high. best bet, if i did release, would be to find someone able to integrate this one into a feral flock, preferably somewhere outside the city. much as id love to see him/her agin if released; id feel worse if something bad happened.

Originally Posted by pdpbison

Hi sdreamcatcher@g,


Yahhhh...post some close ups of the Foot, the 'swelling' of the knuckles there where the toes meet. They walk on their fingers/toes in effect, like if you bent your fingers back, so your palm were perpendicular, so the wrist is up from there...and walked on that that way.

Sprained hips or thighs or legs one way or another, are common, and will appear just as this otherwise, with a relaxed Foot and leg being held up. Usually a couple weeks and all is well again.

This is of course a young Pigeon yet, who is accepting you as their stand-in parent and caretaker. They look quite happy and secure in the images there.

For now, of course i nteract with them all you like, preen them, cuddle them, praise them, admire them...spend time with them in various ways...


Later, it is natural for them to grow up and to assume airs of independance and to join the wild Worlds if allowed to do so. The problem most raisers run into with feral youngsters later, is that they do not sequentially introduce the Bird to other feral/wild Pigeons or flock society, so that, when they try and do what they feel is a 'release', it is too sudden and discontinuous for the Bird to know what to do or how to do it, and if the Bird is nervous or intimidated, or does not leave, they then think the Bird wants to stay with them. Which is not quite the whole truth of the matter.

One generally does best to begin now or to begin early when possible, to be with one's young Pigeon while it gets to meet feral/wild others while grazing Seeds. Yours is of the age where this was begun with it's parents, and likely it got seperated from them and found privation and injury.


But, anyway, the ideal for them, is slightly before they can even fly, to set them with wild others, with one staying close to them so they see one is superviseing and watching over them, in the out of doors for them to begin to acquire the feral modes and society familiarities...and they are always intimidated and nervous the first few times, no matter if supervised by a person-parent or by their own biological Pigeon-Parents...and after a few times, they are comfortable and easy and pecking away with the rest of them.

The danger of course, for us, is if the young Pigeon flys away prematurely...so...somehow, all of this is to be weighed.

If allowed the society of wild or feral others, indoors or out, almost all youngsters once flying, soon become "wild" as can be, no matter how close, comfortable, tender, intimate and happy they had been with us otherwise.

I have been through this many many times...Lol...

if one raises one without their being exposed to feral others, then it is different, and the Pigeon youngster will not tend to become of 'wild' modes and aspect.

And almost all the Babys I have raised this year, instead of the usual thing of me watching over them outside for a few progressive sojournes of their initial socializeing with the feral flock, like I used to do, now, since I had some overlapping stays of WILD adults in free roam in here after their initial convelscence, the Adults in effect induce in the youngsters, or impart to them the feral modes of being, so that they ALL are very wild and will have nothing to do with me...! Too, I know they hamm t up also for fun, but it is also in earnest IN how much they hamm it up.

Lol...

I have in fact some Wild/feral Adults presently, out of cage-time convelescence for broken Wings, who are in fact quite friendly and calm. I can pick them up if I do it slowly and ask first, and they do nor flee or complain. They fly now, and are in the phase after some weeks of cage time, for getting their strength and muscles abck or otherwise finishing up on getting over their injuries.

These individuals would not 'teach' youngsters those modes of being like some others have done...so...it is a matter of the individual also. But I know these adults, once in the world again, would not let me pick them up, no matter how nicely I might ask..!

I liked the 'old' method better...when I could raise Baby Pigeons, and see it all through to their release, with sequences of feral-flock-socializeing that I watch over...

Once ALL the present ones are gone, then, maybe, I can have the old ways back again!


Phil
Las Vegas

[pdpbison]

Hi sdreamcatcher@g,

You could give us your first name if you like...

The 'Toes'...

Now, are they darkened? some of them? on the effected Foot?

Are they at all a slightly less diameter than the healthy colored ones?

This might be from frostbite, but not fresh...

Maybe make some more close up images if you can...of the Foot and Toes?


Such a lovely little Bird...!

Do all the cuddles you like of course...especially if they like it..!


Phil
Las Vegas

[sdreamcatcher@g]

hi phil,

sorrry about that; when i registered i listed my nic as 2many, but i guess it didnt take and defaulted to my email addy? wish there was a way to change that. but jen works too, lol.

his/her feet are two colors, pinkish and kinda grey. not discolored though, just the different pigment. toes seem normal otherwise. (s)he just wont put weight on it.

(s)hes got this new thing where if i put food/water in the tank, i get attacked!! its very funny, although (s)he can get a bit rough. but if i scratch his/her neck feathers, i get gentle nibbles or (s)he just settles down and closes his/her eyes. i think (s)hes just reminding me whos boss sometimes (s)he trembles a bit when i come close, but usually stops right away and settles down if i talk to him/her.

(s)he hasnt made any sounds at all since coming home. is that normal, or should i be worried? are girls quieter, or do you think (s)he may be traumatized still? maybe (s)he just doesnt have anything important to say yet?

anyway of telling if i have a boy or a girl?

his/her wing markings are really different from pictures ive come across. quite a pretty baby though, i agree

jen

Originally Posted by pdpbison

Hi sdreamcatcher@g,

You could give us your first name if you like...

The 'Toes'...

Now, are they darkened? some of them? on the effected Foot?

Are they at all a slightly less diameter than the healthy colored ones?

This might be from frostbite, but not fresh...

Maybe make some more close up images if you can...of the Foot and Toes?


Such a lovely little Bird...!

Do all the cuddles you like of course...especially if they like it..!


Phil
Las Vegas

[sdreamcatcher@g]

best picture of his/her foot that i could manage for right now; all the rest were very blurry. (s)he was also pecking at the camera when i tried to get closer

[sdreamcatcher@g]

used the macro lens feature on the camera, duh, jen :



also called the feed store, since they have pigeons. she doesnt know as much as her dad but shes still very knowledgeable. said i need a specific food for pigeons, and something called red gravel or red grit? i forget what she said. also said it sounds like the foot is sprained, and will heal in a few weeks.

[TAWhatley]

Originally Posted by sdreamcatcher@g

said i need a specific food for pigeons, and something called red gravel or red grit? i forget what she said. also said it sounds like the foot is sprained, and will heal in a few weeks.

The red grit is a supplement and given in a separate container from the actual pigeon seed mix.

That foot does look extremely painful and inflamed. I'd guess there is a break there somewhere or a wound that has become infected. Hopefully others will be along shortly to offer their opinions. Also, get a magnifying glass and look very, very carefully to be sure there isn't hair, fishing line, or the like around that area.

Can you have a vet or rehabber take a look at that leg and foot?

Terry

[TerriB]

There's a dark spot just above where the outside toe attaches. Is that a wound?

[pdpbison]

Hi Jen,


The Foot does look a little swollen to me too...

Sprained Feet are something I have never seen, but it could happen of course. I usually see sprained Legs, thighs, hip-areas as it were, but either way, they will hold them 'up' like that for however long it takes to heal from the sprain or green fracture of a bone. ( That is, where the crack in a bone is not a clean break-in-tw,o or seperation )

Young Pigeons do not tend to make sounds other than their peeps and squeaks for asking to be fed, or the same sounds in narrating their own pecking successes...or little grunts or murmers. In fact baby Pigeons and people-Babys actually make some sounds almost the same, little murmer wise.

No way to tell gender at this age...and very difficult later for that matter, although adult Males have some habits which most adult Females do not...

Glad to hear I was only seeing natural coloring there on those Toes...

'Pixeon Mix' of some kind would be the best, containing an assortment of Whole dries Peas of various kinds, whole dried Corn, Milo, Oat Groats maybe, some Sunflower Seeds, and whatever else...

Oyster Shell or other Marine Shell based Grit is good...clean Sand is fine...Canary or Parakeet Grit ( more or less clean sand) is fine...the 'Red' grit is usually Granite I think, on which have been adhered some additional mineral suppliments, and it is fine. Small (1/8th inch or so acroess) clean gravel or about any kind is fine for that matter.

Figure whatever Grit you get, have it in either a seperate little pile, or in a seperate little bowl.


Small, stright sided 'Custard' Bowls make good Pigeon food and Water Bowls, and any thrift store will have them inexpensively if you do not already posess them...I must have twenty or more of them in various sizes. Pigeons often tend to wish to perch on the sides of their Food and Water Bowls, so, straight sided ones are less likely to tip. Too, to lessen that, and to accomidate them aditionally, one can set a half-a-brick, half of some old clean housebrick or a clean non-tipping Grapefruit sized Rock in there for them to perch on...they like to be 'up' of course, even if it is only a few or several inches...

Get her some thin dried-matted flat-mop-like Sea Weed at an Oriental Market and shred some of that up into little peck-able pieces and see if she likes it...all of mine do...!

It is a good natural source of Vitamine "A" and some other discrete things.

Always ask first if you intend to reach into her cage or house...be respectful that way.

It is of course a good sign when they 'attack' us, as it shows they are not intimidated by us, and are interested to defend their space or posessions against our meddleing as 'if' we were another Pigeon or another small animal.

Even the fiercest Pigeons will usually just stand there and carefully observe with no attack, if you comunicate to them that you wish to replenish their food or water and that you will not try and pull any funny business...! Then you can reach in, graze them lightly even with your hand, and take out the old bowls and set new fresh ones in...and all is calm...

If you want to preen her, just stare at that spot you intend to preen, and slowly reach to it..and, she will likely know then what you intend. Too, otherwise, almost all wild Birds not raised by us from tiny Babys will object to being handled or picked up, so, they need to know what to expect so they are not having to guess...when we are about to do something to them, with them, or in their home or cage.

Lol...


Have fun...!

Phil
Las Vegas'