Why Can't People just be KIND

[SerendipityCA]

OK, so yes, it's illegal to feed pigeons here in San Francisco. And I still do it. I feed my little flock every day on the sidewalk between some trees, on the "blind" side of a building with little foot traffic.

I do try to be discreet, and scan the horizon for anybody who might see me feeding. But oftentimes the pigeons give me away because they fly down to meet me, and get all excited while they're waiting for me to put down the seed.

They eat quickly and are often back on their rooftops and electrical wires within 5 minutes. No fuss, no muss.

There's this woman who has been around the neighborhood for years, maybe in her late 60's or early 70's by now. I met her many years ago because she used to walk an elderly neighbor's yellow lab, Ginger. I once saw her hit Ginger right across the face, in fact I was standing there talking to her when she did it, she didn't try to hide it from me. I told the dog's owner but she just said "Oh, Ginger loves her!" and indeed, Ginger had an exceedingly strong will and hard head, but still, it didn't sit right with me.

When Ginger's owner died, they sent Ginger to live in Oregon and there was some talk about sending this woman up with her but it didn't happen, and she basically became homeless.

I think she's from Germany, she has a thick accent, and no teeth, so her tongue slaps disgustingly against her lips when she talks. And she's dirty, and has a big wart on her chin with a hair growing out of it. She's fluent in English. I never liked her because she was always very opinionated and domineering and loud even before she became homeless, and she hasn't changed.

Anyway, the other day when I had just fed the pigeons she came along and said in her smug know-it-all tone that it was illegal to feed pigeons. I ignored her.

Today, I had fed them and had walked away, crossed the street and was buying a paper at a rack, when I glanced over and saw her walking down toward the pigeons who were still eating. She threw something at them, hurled it with all her might (a cup?) and they flew away, and then sat down on a ledge of the building near where I feed. I went over and confronted her and she yelled at me that feeding pigeons was illegal. I said cruelty to animals was illegal, and so was littering, and so was vagrancy and not having a fixed address or means of support. I also asked whether she was a legal citizen (she didn't answer), and said that if I saw her harrassing the pigeons again I would call the police. She wouldn't leave, so I just stood there next to her and waited her out. She yelled, so I yelled louder and longer.

I am tall, and she is short, so I think my physical presence intimidated her, and eventually she wandered off.

I don't know why a person who is down on her luck and basically depends on kindness from strangers in order to survive, can't show a little empathy to stray pigeons who are basically in the same boat as she is, and just leave them alone.

So, from now on I am going to have to stay while they eat. She won't call the police, she doesn't even have a cell phone. And I'll make it clear to her the next time I see her that I will file a complaint against her for aggressive behavior, cruelty to animals and littering if she tries. Then my next call will be to the INS. I'm just not going to stand for this.

Normally I try to float under the radar and not get into confrontations with people, which is why this is only the second time I have had a problem, in many months, feeding the birds...but the problem with a homeless busybody like her is that she has nothing but time on her hands, she lives on the street (THAT street, or nearby), and this gives her a "crusade" - something to while away the time and give her a feeling of importance and control over her environment.

I really REALLY prefer to avoid such confrontations because they end up focusing somebody's negative attention on the pigeons. I prefer not to give nasty people any energy back, because they feed on it. It makes them feel less invisible if somebody out there finds them worthy of attention - and it doesn't matter if it's BAD attention - as long as somebody - ANYBODY - notices them.

[EgypSwiftLady]

I have come to realize that many people that are mean to animals or other people need to have control over something or someone because too many times their own life sucks in one way or another.

You are wrong when you said that the pigeons are in the same situation she is. YOU care and it sounds like you love those pigeons, that woman has no one that cares and loves her, she seems jealous of the attention and kindness you give them.

Stand your ground about feeding the pigeons, but have you tried a little kindness for her? I know full well that some people are just plain mean and angry and she may be one of those no matter what you do.

[Pegasus]

There is nothing wrong for you to feed the birds but you know other people will have their own opinions about the birds, from what I hear (THEIR OPINION) they are dirty, with diseases and some other crappy reasons that they dont even know, for me I dont care if some people feeds them but you have to realize that if the city ruled out that, its illegal, it is illegal, just dont let anyone pursue this and take a pic of you feeding them, better to avoid the court crap.Better to know your rights about feeding them coz as far as I'm concern the law says it all..

Here in NYC as far as I know some building owners down in Manhattan hire someone to eliminate pigeons and by doing that is they lure the birds to eat bread then mix the food with AVITROL, that really kill the pigeon slowly with in 24 hours, the bird will flip and try to get their balance together then die on wherever the pigeon is...My main concern is be careful...

[SerendipityCA]

Originally Posted by EgypSwiftLady

Stand your ground about feeding the pigeons, but have you tried a little kindness for her? I know full well that some people are just plain mean and angry and she may be one of those no matter what you do.

I always used to speak to her when she walked Ginger. Then when I saw her on the street after Ginger's owner had died several years ago, she was pushing a shopping cart with a sleeping bag in it, near a public park in the neighborhood, and I stopped and spoke to her (that's how I found out about how she was supposed to go to Oregon with Ginger but it fell through), and I treated her exactly as I always had - with dignity. I didn't mention her circumstances.

After that, I'd see her on the street and occasionally stop to talk to her but she had never been someone I actually LIKED (especially after I saw her clobber the dog in the face) so I have to admit, I avoided her after that. She just has an unpleasant personality. As I said, a kind of loud know-it-all.

I think she threw the first stone. Here's a person in the neighborhood who had always been polite to her, and she's THREATENING me with turning me in? Then she's attacking the pigeons behind my back, after she's seen me feed them, thinking I won't see her do that?

I don't know how she saw me feeding them but she did, and she waited until I had left in order to act out her nastiness toward them.

No, there won't be any further kindness from me.

[SerendipityCA]

Originally Posted by Pegasus

There is nothing wrong for you to feed the birds but you know other people will have their own opinions about the birds, from what I hear (THEIR OPINION) they are dirty, with diseases and some other crappy reasons that they dont even know, for me I dont care if some people feeds them but you have to realize that if the city ruled out that, its illegal, it is illegal, just dont let anyone pursue this and take a pic of you feeding them, better to avoid the court crap.Better to know your rights about feeding them coz as far as I'm concern the law says it all..

Here in NYC as far as I know some building owners down in Manhattan hire someone to eliminate pigeons and by doing that is they lure the birds to eat bread then mix the food with AVITROL, that really kill the pigeon slowly with in 24 hours, the bird will flip and try to get their balance together then die on wherever the pigeon is...My main concern is be careful...

Thanks Pegasus, I was a bit worried that she would try to poison the pigeons but I don't think she has access to poison. I'll just have to be even more covert from now on.

I didn't think anybody could see me but apparently she DID see me, and waited until I had gone to go and throw stuff at the pigeons - sneaky witch.

[Pegasus]

Have you thought about any poison will kill a pigeon (De-Con=rat poison for example), I will give you an example that some s__pid people once mentioned things to me that they threw an Alka-Seltzer on seagulls and swallow it then blew-up while flying...See, you have to put your feet on their shoes sometimes to know how others think, to avoid the confrontation by whoever, do it away from the place where you were feeding the flock, eventually the pigeons will see the food and eat it...

Another example of eliminating the pigeons will be trapping them and that is humane way, right?, then release them somewhere really far, but no one will have the patient to trap every pigeons in your area I don't mean to sound that I'm against your way but just stating the facts of what other people can do to your lovable birds...

[Charis]

She's probably mentally ill. Don't let her get to you.

[RodSD]

I think you did wrong. You insulted that woman. Perhaps if you feed her first, then the pigeon, all three of you will probably have good conversation. Some people got homeless beyond their control. Some have chosen to do so. I still remember giving some money to a homeless person. He said he can't accept it because it is not much. How insulting! But some homeless people have this pride in them.

[jameswaller]

Originally Posted by SerendipityCA

OK, so yes, it's illegal to feed pigeons here in San Francisco. And I still do it. I feed my little flock every day on the sidewalk between some trees, on the "blind" side of a building with little foot traffic.

I do try to be discreet, and scan the horizon for anybody who might see me feeding. But oftentimes the pigeons give me away because they fly down to meet me, and get all excited while they're waiting for me to put down the seed.

They eat quickly and are often back on their rooftops and electrical wires within 5 minutes. No fuss, no muss.

There's this woman who has been around the neighborhood for years, maybe in her late 60's or early 70's by now. I met her many years ago because she used to walk an elderly neighbor's yellow lab, Ginger. I once saw her hit Ginger right across the face, in fact I was standing there talking to her when she did it, she didn't try to hide it from me. I told the dog's owner but she just said "Oh, Ginger loves her!" and indeed, Ginger had an exceedingly strong will and hard head, but still, it didn't sit right with me.

When Ginger's owner died, they sent Ginger to live in Oregon and there was some talk about sending this woman up with her but it didn't happen, and she basically became homeless.

I think she's from Germany, she has a thick accent, and no teeth, so her tongue slaps disgustingly against her lips when she talks. And she's dirty, and has a big wart on her chin with a hair growing out of it. She's fluent in English. I never liked her because she was always very opinionated and domineering and loud even before she became homeless, and she hasn't changed.

Anyway, the other day when I had just fed the pigeons she came along and said in her smug know-it-all tone that it was illegal to feed pigeons. I ignored her.

Today, I had fed them and had walked away, crossed the street and was buying a paper at a rack, when I glanced over and saw her walking down toward the pigeons who were still eating. She threw something at them, hurled it with all her might (a cup?) and they flew away, and then sat down on a ledge of the building near where I feed. I went over and confronted her and she yelled at me that feeding pigeons was illegal. I said cruelty to animals was illegal, and so was littering, and so was vagrancy and not having a fixed address or means of support. I also asked whether she was a legal citizen (she didn't answer), and said that if I saw her harrassing the pigeons again I would call the police. She wouldn't leave, so I just stood there next to her and waited her out. She yelled, so I yelled louder and longer.

I am tall, and she is short, so I think my physical presence intimidated her, and eventually she wandered off.

I don't know why a person who is down on her luck and basically depends on kindness from strangers in order to survive, can't show a little empathy to stray pigeons who are basically in the same boat as she is, and just leave them alone.

So, from now on I am going to have to stay while they eat. She won't call the police, she doesn't even have a cell phone. And I'll make it clear to her the next time I see her that I will file a complaint against her for aggressive behavior, cruelty to animals and littering if she tries. Then my next call will be to the INS. I'm just not going to stand for this.

Normally I try to float under the radar and not get into confrontations with people, which is why this is only the second time I have had a problem, in many months, feeding the birds...but the problem with a homeless busybody like her is that she has nothing but time on her hands, she lives on the street (THAT street, or nearby), and this gives her a "crusade" - something to while away the time and give her a feeling of importance and control over her environment.

I really REALLY prefer to avoid such confrontations because they end up focusing somebody's negative attention on the pigeons. I prefer not to give nasty people any energy back, because they feed on it. It makes them feel less invisible if somebody out there finds them worthy of attention - and it doesn't matter if it's BAD attention - as long as somebody - ANYBODY - notices them.

dear pigeon lover,..you go girl,..you are awesome!!..i raise homers,just south of seattle,wash.we do not have such laws yet,but i think some laws are created out of ignorance,and a need to generate more revenue,..and it is a shame,society forces us to be covert,,..please remember we are out numbered??-out gunned,so to speak,..donot get caught,even the seemingly helpless people can cause great pain,when the so called law is on there side,..i am a grandparent,my wife and i stood helpless while 3 of our grand children were removed and given to teir crack/druggy mother,so they could be taken to a crack/drug infested house,.the police were very proud that they had done their job--so be carefull,..sincerely..james waller

[SerendipityCA]

Originally Posted by jameswaller

i am a grandparent,my wife and i stood helpless while 3 of our grand children were removed and given to teir crack/druggy mother,so they could be taken to a crack/drug infested house,.the police were very proud that they had done their job--so be carefull,..sincerely..james waller

Thanks James, I hear ya! I realize that the law is not on my side, and if the wrong person gets spiteful enough, I will be on the police's radar and then I'll have to be even more covert about feeding them. I may just go out at night (it's only a few blocks from my house and I have to walk the dog in the evening anyway) and put the seed out under cover of darkness. That way, the birds can come and eat whenever it suits them. Of course, that would deprive me of the fun of seeing and interacting with them every day, but it's more important for them to have food and to remain undisturbed, than it is for me to build a relationship with them. I'm certain they WILL find the food if I put it out in the same spot at night.

[tuxedobaby]

the old woman may have mental health issues or alcohol issues so i would not take her too seriously,still she sounds unkind,being homeless cant be easy,espec at an older age,but one would think she would show some empathy with the birds,if she goes to police,you can do likewise,as they may be able to give her the help she needs as its wrong of her to harass people and animals etc,she amy be better off in an institution or home for displaced persons and get the care she needs

[EgypSwiftLady]

Originally Posted by SerendipityCA

I always used to speak to her when she walked Ginger. Then when I saw her on the street after Ginger's owner had died several years ago, she was pushing a shopping cart with a sleeping bag in it, near a public park in the neighborhood, and I stopped and spoke to her (that's how I found out about how she was supposed to go to Oregon with Ginger but it fell through), and I treated her exactly as I always had - with dignity. I didn't mention her circumstances.

After that, I'd see her on the street and occasionally stop to talk to her but she had never been someone I actually LIKED (especially after I saw her clobber the dog in the face) so I have to admit, I avoided her after that. She just has an unpleasant personality. As I said, a kind of loud know-it-all.

I think she threw the first stone. Here's a person in the neighborhood who had always been polite to her, and she's THREATENING me with turning me in? Then she's attacking the pigeons behind my back, after she's seen me feed them, thinking I won't see her do that?

I don't know how she saw me feeding them but she did, and she waited until I had left in order to act out her nastiness toward them.

No, there won't be any further kindness from me.

I understand you tried to be kind and she rejected that and I also understand all the points you are bringing up about her being an illegal and threatening you.
I apologize if you thought I was saying anything againist you.

[Ivor]

I also feed my pigeons around Embarcadero downtown SF where I work, and before I got there, my pigeons are waiting for me, and they all arrived when they see me before putting the seeds there, but I noticed that even guys can give you a bad look sometimes, but I didn't hear any complaint so far, I expected, I try to be careful because I work there, and if someone from my office see me I can be in trouble, we own the buildings so would be very bad if some tenants see me doing that, I feed them from Monday thru Friday and I come on Sundays, is the best day, nobody around, and I feed 3 different flocks one is a huge flock, but I feed that group only on Sundays, before to start my day is my first mission, anyways, about this woman she doesn't know about law or anything, so as long as she believes what you say you will be fine, I hate when people do this, I always have seeds in my packets so when I go to places and I see birds or pigeons I have something to give them, and I can see all different reactions from people, some say is illegal , I say if you eat they can eat don't you think? or I say send me the ticket, but I found people that smile with me, or even more I remember one day I was expecting bad words from this man, because he was watching me, and he says God bless you, it really made my day, I was ready to fight, so don't give up, and just stay around the pigeons nobody have to say anything, we know the rules here in SF, but as long as a police don't stop you I don't see any problem, just be careful with this woman.

Ivette

[SmithFamilyLoft]

Originally Posted by SerendipityCA

OK, so yes, it's illegal to feed pigeons here in San Francisco. And I still do it. I feed my little flock every day on the sidewalk between some trees, on the "blind" side of a building with little foot traffic.

I do try to be discreet, and scan the horizon for anybody who might see me feeding........

I often come across as some sort of a kill joy, and that is not my intention. The topic of feeding feral pigeons has come up numerous times, and there always seems to be two camps of people regarding this issue.

If you live in the USA, you must understand that this is a Nation of laws. Can you imagine what can and does happen, when people decide to only obey laws which they agree with ? Such a condition is referred to as "Anarchy". Now there have been times in our history, when public disobedience was the only recourse with immoral and unjust laws, which latter were changed. Such as the so-called "Jim Crow" laws. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Crow_laws

However, laws which ban the feeding of wild birds, were put into place for some very good reasons. I live just a few blocks from a public city park, which happens to have a small man made lake. As you can imagine, wild water birds stop in and ad to the beauty and nature of the park. So far....so good....then introduce well meaning humans who upset nature's balance, by feeding these birds. What do you think happened ?

Disaster ! Not only for humans but also for the birds. Part of the "entertainment" was to go feed the "ducks"...which were really Canadian geese. For the first few years or so, not much attention was paid to the environmental impact, and it would take many hundreds of words to describe the carnage which resulted as a result of human interference, well meaning as it might have been.

What may have started out as several dozen transient feathered visitors, ended up with a resident colony numbering perhaps in the thousands !! They refused to fly south for the winter, and it totally upset the ecological environment. The water became contaminated, algae grew out of control, fish died, and the area smelled like a cess pool. Dead birds littered the area, geese would attack people, animals fed off the dead bird's, and did I mention the tons of poop which littered the lake, the grounds, etc. etc.

Birds which had no business living on a frozen lake, in the middle of the winter, had to rely 100% on humans to survive. Only the die hard bird feeders would wonder onto the piles of poop to feed the starving birds, and they would be mobbed....how many loaves of bread a day does it take to feed several thousand starving birds ? On those days when there was a severe wind chill and most people stayed home, what do you think it did to these poor birds ? Was that kind ? No, I suggest that those good intentioned people caused much harm and suffering.

Now, let's get back to resident pigeon flocks in cities. There are plenty of examples, of what happens when a feral flock has an unfettered feed supply. They reproduce !! Then what happens ? Besides pigeon spikes, nets, and exterminators ? Anti-pigeon people call for drastic action, to "control" the problem. And then from a very selfish stand point, since I own pigeons in a city, what kinds of ideas do you think a city council could come up with if the good citizens demand something be done about the pigeon "problem" ????

One can argue that one person secretly handing out a few handful's of feed to some hungry pigeons do no harm. Problem is, absent laws, it does not end there. Your "kindness" even on a small scale, much like people who put out food for feral cats, results in more babies to live and die on the streets.

I suggest, you keep a pet pigeon in your home or yard, and leave the feral population alone, and let Mother Nature keep the numbers in check. You can find fault with the poor homeless woman, ".. she's from Germany, she has a thick accent, and no teeth, so her tongue slaps disgustingly against her lips when she talks. And she's dirty, and has a big wart on her chin with a hair growing out of it." But, the next person could be me, washed, clean shaven, all my teeth, with a cell phone, and I would call the police, and testify in court if necessary. Because, if nothing else, it's the law and it's a law as a pigeon fancier I support.

[Pegasus]

Originally Posted by Ivor

as long as a police don't stop you I don't see any problem, just be careful with this woman.

Ivette

I don't mean to say you're wrong on that opinion Ivette, what they want to do is to see someone who they think doing the wrong doing... for example: from the distance, without you knowing they are taking pictures of you and next thing you know, you will have a citation or summon stating in the mail that you've seen feeding the birds and they have proof to prove it...I will never give them any chance to get to me, my best suggestion to this, scattered the feed at night as much as you can so you don't have to worry about them feeling hungry all day, that's what I do when I know I will be away for hours and not sure what time I'll be back in the late PM, I'll give them (my birds) the extra food they can have... If I can avoid not to be seen then that's the best way I shud do...

I always remember ; there's a GOOD cop and a BAD cop...