Ethics in replacing fertile eggs with fakes

[Dovena]

My rehabbed feral pigeons have breeded and are making lots of beautiful offspring. My apartment is getting rather filled up, however. Some pigeon people have advised me to wait until the mom is distracted and steal her fertile eggs, then replace them with dummy (fake, plastic) eggs which she and her mate will then take turns sitting on. I tried doing this and actually held the warm fertile eggs in one hand, while replacing them with the plastic ones. Just then, mom pigeon must have had a bad omen, because she came running down the hall towards the nest and I just couldn't do it. I replaced the real eggs into the nest. The babies were fine. But now it is three sets of babies later and I am still in this predicament. It's not good to kill a healthy pigeon, so isn't it just as bad to kill a healthy fertile egg (embryo)? Is it crueler to separate the male pigeon from his mate so that there will be no fertile eggs henceforth? Please advise.

[Pigeonpal2002]

Hi Dovena,

When are you taking these fertile eggs? ..after how long of incubation time? You should remove them after they are laid and then you are not "killing" anything as the embryo hasn't even started to develop yet. Separating the pair is not very easy on them.

[RoundAbout]

I have this problem, too. One solution I have used is to take away one egg, and let the couple raise one chick. That cuts down your population by 50% anyway. Then I only let them breed once or twice a year by taking the eggs away as soon as laid. The pair hasn't developed a great affection for their eggs yet, so don't seem to be upset. They just begin again with their homely activities.
RoundAbout

[John_D]

Dovena -

Brad is right. It is fine to remove the eggs and replace with plastic straight after each is laid, or both at once immediately after the 2nd egg is laid. They won't really start to be 'living' until, say, day after the 2nd egg appears, to be safe.

John

[upcd]

Adoption might be a option. Ask alot of questions to get a good home. Or Sell or charge a fee. All pigeons even ferals have value. And can get a good home with your help.

[Dovena]

So you believe that it's not "living" from the moment it is laid? Then what about the deception aspect? Deceiving your trusting birds and tricking them into devotedly continuing to sit on their eggs, not knowing that their trusted owner has played a trick and substituted phony ones. And also, from the moment the viable egg is laid, how can we say that it is not alive? It contains the live germ. Isn't it all relative?

[TAWhatley]

Perhaps the situation needs to be viewed from the perspective of purposely bringing a new life into a world that may be less than kind and welcoming assuming the bird is ultimately released to fend for itself. Unfortunately the harsh reality of having "pet" pigeons is that nobody I know has the resources to properly house and care for an ever growing and unlimited number of pigeons. The buck has to stop somewhere, and the only place that can be is with the human who is responsible for the well being of the birds.

JMO ..

Terry

[mistenle]

In nature population is controlled through predation and disease. By replacing their eggs you are controlling the population in a much kinder and gentler way.

[Dovena]

I would appreciate your advice on the alternative "birth control" method of segregating the male birds from the females. That way, there will be no "right to life" dilemma to begin with. Your thoughts would be much appreciated. One person whom I know who has a coop with hundreds of birds does this.

[Pigeonpal2002]

Hi Dovena,

May I ask you, how many pigeons do you have currently? And you mentioned that you live in apartment so where do you house them in the apartment? I think you will find, that separating the male and female birds is not beneficial in your situation...unless you have one large apartment and many different rooms to put them in. I can also tell you that once they are separated, they will spend all their time calling to their mates and trying to find a way to get to them... especially if they can see and hear them. I agree with Terry here, you have to take some responsibility for your birds breeding out of control. I don't think you'll be happy with the end result of separating a mated pair of birds and I know that the birds definitely won't be.

[Lin Hansen]

Hi Dovena,

You've been given some good advice here in response to your questions.

I don't think there is any "right to life" dilemma here.....apparently if you pull and switch the eggs with "dummy" eggs immediately after the second egg is laid, there is nothing that you are killing, if that is your fear, because the eggs will not have begun to develop. Please see a previous thread for verification..just click on it:
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=9637

Also, you seem to be very concerned about upsetting your pigeons, as you mentioned that you felt switching their eggs would be deceptive and would alarm them. I think separating mated pairs just for the sake of birth control, would be much more upsetting and alarming to them, than simply switching the eggs.

Linda

[Trees Gray]

Hello everyone,

This is a topic I have been dealing with for years...to breed or not to breed...to seperate or not to seperate...

First of all, I do not think it is wise to break up couples after they have been together for years, they have truly bonded and seperating them would be inhumane. It is okay for youngsters who have just grown up, and have no mates, they adjust well, especially if they are in a racing team.

Second of all, it is not inhumane to pull eggs daily and replace with dummy eggs. It is more inhumane to overcrowd the birds you have. I have been removing eggs daily and replacing them with dummy eggs, and believe me, with 50 pigeons, it is a task, a labor of love, because I love my birds. I would jeopardize my already existing birds with overcrowding, and they would become misserable if I allowed my birds to breed. The quality of their lives would go down, and they would not be a happy group. As it stands, they are happy, healthy, interact with each other, have plenty of room to fly, bathe, good quality grains and seeds to eat. I would rather save the room that IS left for rehabbing needy birds, that already exist.

We have increased the size of our coop twice, and have added walk-in iaviaries where the birds can fly. Not, because of increasing population, but because my birds happiness takes priority. They excercise, play, and swim, a regular pigeon haven. Birdy once told me, after he saw the picture of our coop..."When I die, If I should come back as a pigeon, I would like to come back and live in your coop!"

By the way, Skye and the gang say hi! Tiny has come to visit, but he thinks he is human and wants to hang out with us, he has no interest in my coop or aviary or pigeons. He loves to sit on my shoulder and preen himself, if I try to pick him up (as a pigeon would be held) he bites my finger, he's totally insulted and lets me know "how dare you pick me up like that, what do you think I am, a pigeon!" He is such a cool bird!!! Reti has done a great job with him and all her pigeons!


So glad to be back on line....

Treesa

[Reti]

Hi Treesa,
Tiny misses you too. You are the only person who give him the attention he deserves, other than me. He really can't understand why he can't hang out more with humans.

You have the nicest coop and the happiest birds. I just love that place.

Hi to Skye and the rest og the gang.

Reti

[John_D]

Dovena,

I would not concern yourself with such concepts as 'deceiving' pigeons. That is a human thing. Someone posted a simple view of how it works with them, on another group, which I pass on. Basically, that for 'everyday' life, they know what they have to do at a given point but not why - i.e., they don't see the 'big picture'. So, they sit eggs until they hatch - or, after the right period, by some kind of internal clock, they give up on them if they don't hatch. It is unlikely that they 'know' what 'should' have happened after 17 - 19 days.

They have intelligence, of course they do, but for these basic functions it is not necessary to employ it.

Treesa,

Hi and welcome back to the mad world of online pigeonfolk

John

[Dovena]

Here are additional facts: There are two pairs of mated birds. One has bonded since late January of this year, so they have been together around 3 months. The second couple has been together only a little over one month. I have a large living room, an eat-in kitchen, a bedroom, and a bathroom. The apartment is quite long, so the birds, if segregated by sex, would not necessarily hear or see one another. The mates have been together only a matter of months, not years. Also, another difficulty in removing the eggs is that there is always a bird sitting on them, and sometimes they ATTACK quite fiercely. It's not that they calmly move over and allow me to remove the eggs. Sometimes, it hurts! This was not supposed to happen. I was only rehabbing some injured birds. They fell in love. I was advised to replace the fertile eggs with dummy ones, not to worry. Then it turned out to be not so easy to do. They don't just give up their fertile eggs without a fight. It seems the moms sitting on eggs would fight to the death to protect their eggs. My instinct is always that, well, if they feel that strongly about it that they would risk their lives to attack me and fight to the death, then who am I to argue? Do I win, because I am bigger than she is? I dunno.