Alea's New Thread & Pic

[TAWhatley]

Hi All,

The previous thread is getting quite long so am starting a new one for Alea along with a picture showing the drastic difference in Ali and Bert.

Please see: http://www.rims.net/alea5x.jpg

Please all, if you have any ideas what to do to help Ali, let's be seeing them posted.

Terry

[Nooti]

Hi Alea
Can't stop to say much right now, but have sent Terry a piccy of a pair I had - one of whom had paratyphoid and you will see that your birds are not alone.
I'll catch up with you later, hopefully when Terry has been able to make the picture available.

[TAWhatley]

Hi Alea and all,

Helen sent this picture of a paratyphoid baby she raised. It tells pretty much the same story as Ali and Bert.

http://www.rims.net/piedyoomi.jpg


Terry


[This message has been edited by TAWhatley (edited February 21, 2004).]

[Nooti]

Thanks Terry
These two are exactly the same age - seems unbelievable but that is what paratyphoid does to baby pigeons. It's a horrid thing to have to watch.
Actually I've had so many in and seen so many in my loft before I sussed out what it was and how to deal with it, that I can spot these babies when they hatch. Because of this I can start treatment from day one and they never get as bad as that.

[This message has been edited by Nooti (edited February 21, 2004).]

[Feefo]

It's so sad! Did yours pull through, Helen?

Cynthia

[Nooti]

It's over three years ago Cynthia but I think he was the first one I pulled through.

[alea2]

Well, thank you all for your kind words and encouragement. Sorry if I sounded a bit hysterical last time I posted. Today, to my great suprise I was able to feed almost 15cc. at both feedings so far. I think if this slight progress continues we may be out of the woods. The crop slowness did seem to be worsening for a day or 2, but today it seems better, so I'm happy. I have been reading over the posts, and seen the pic of Helens babies,... that sure is the same story as with my birds. I just have one question... Helen, in the previous thread I think you said Ali should be getting about 120cc. of feed per day, but he is so small, I know that his crop can only hold 15-20cc max. Can that be right? I also remember feeding about 15cc. 3x per day to Bert when he was that small, and up until I weaned him. 120cc. just seems a huge amount to me. Is that number representative of what they eat when being handfed, or when self-feeding at 6 weeks???
I have added a good multivitamin, so maybe that is helping too. It specifically says to give an increased dosage to birds with weakened immune systems, so that is what I've been doing. Still open to suggestions... still hanging in there.
Thanks again.
Alea

[This message has been edited by alea2 (edited February 21, 2004).]

[TAWhatley]

Hey Alea! I'm so glad Ali (and you) have had a pretty good day! As to the amount of formula you can feed .. it's just pretty much what you are able to get in without "overflow". I think the 120 ml Helen has mentioned is for a heathly baby well on the way to being grown and is probably being fed at 40 ml three times per day. I think you have a really good handle on how much Ali can take at one feeding and a good sense of when there seems to be trouble. I think Ali will be fine if you just keep going as you have been.

I was, however, thinking the Ali situation over and wondering if we might gain some ground by changing to a different base food .. say game bird starter which is much higher in protein than the Exact. Or perhaps adding some human meat based babyfood and/or some hard boiled egg yolk to the formula. Let's see what Helen and the other members think about these ideas.

Terry

PS: Please thank your friend for taking the pictures. They are a great help in really knowing what's going on.


[This message has been edited by TAWhatley (edited February 21, 2004).]

[dano7]

I raised two birds who were orphaned at about 9 days old. One was a little behind his brother, but then he became way behind and it killed me to watch that little guy. I did not know at the time what it was and I thought maybe he just isn't good at metabolizing protien so I spiked his formula with a pinch of mashed sardines and rarely some egg. He made it. My knowledge is limited but one vote for a wee bit of protein.

[alea2]

Hello all.
Terry, I like the idea of increasing protein. A couple of times I put a few pieces of soaked puppy chow into the syringe, and then squirted that into the mixed formula, adding more water as needed. I didn't do it again after the crop slowness seemed to be returning, though. I got a little gun shy, I guess. I remember someone recommended a recipe of soaked dog food and hard boiled egg yolk, mixed with water to fatten up a baby. I may just try that right now, as I am about to give the last feeding. If anyone has any other ideas, please share.
Thanks,
Alea

[Nooti]

Hi Alea
Terry's right, in a healthy baby of that size he would be getting 120mls per day comprising 3 x 40ml feeds. When I said that it was to give you an idea of the volume of nutritional requirements at that size - not age, so you would then realise why he looks like a caricature instead of a pigeon!
Extra protien is a good idea - and egg yolk is probably the best as it will mush up and go through a syringe and tube very easily.
Here's hoping things improve. Keep up the Baytril, it's his only chance.

[Feefo]

Hi Alea,

You are doing an excellent job!

I am poking my nose in here just in case Helen can't come on line and am open to correction:

The 120 cc a day is Helen's recommendation for a 30 day old pigeon to keep alive and gain weight, but crop size comes into it too! You can't feed more that the crop will take or than the pigeon will digest, so take it slowly, ensure that the crop never gets overfilled and that it emptied between feeds.

I once had a baby wood pigeon that toook 40 cc per feed, so when I got another in I fed it exactly the same amount. But when I looked into its mouth I could see the fluid level at the back of the throat, so I realised I had overdone it! Of course I went into a blind panic wondering what on earth I could do. Fortunately I am in the UK and was able to telephone Helen immediately, she explained that the second pigeon had tensed its crop up so it contracted, and that 20cc would have been the correct amount in that case. She also told me that as the pigeon was not distressed or panting to leave it as it was and the formula would work its way down, which it did.

Cynthia

[Feefo]

BTW when I said "baby woodpigeon" I meant an adult sized fledgling!

Cynthia

[alea]

Hello everyone.
I understand what you mean, (Cynthia) but unfortunately, the crop doesn't seem to completely empty at all. It helps when I add water a few hours after the last feeding,... then it will usually be empty by morning. However, between morning and noon, and noon and evening, it always seems to go down just enough to take about 10 cc.'s more. Still, I don't think the crop capacity is much more than 15 ml anyway, so I've been hoping that it mostly emptying was close enough.
Do you think I should switch to an 8 hour cycle instead of letting 12 hours elapse during the night? I don't see it making a whole lot of difference, but I'd appreciate other opinions.
Well, here's my new formula, and I am open to suggestions, of course.

1/2 tbspoon baby bird formula powder
8 pieces soaked puppy chow (mashed)
1/4 of an egg yolk (mashed)
water as needed
1/4 tspoon vitamin supplement

This recipe makes up about double what I need, but I mix it up that way for ease of measurement and sucking into the syringe. (So, he is only getting about half that extra protein, vitamins, etc.)
I started off with even less puppy chow/egg yolk,.. just to test the waters, but he seemed to be no worse, so I increased it slightly.
Thanks to everyone who has encouraged me, and shared their experiences and knowledge. I have been frustrated lately, but reading all of your posts really helps!
Alea

[TAWhatley]

Hi Alea,

Your recipe looks pretty good to me when given at half of the total. I hope that little Ali starts to put on some weight with this. Hopefully others will be along shortly to offer their input.

You have done such a wonderful job with Ali and Bert! If I could give you a medal, I would .. hmmmmm who is your commanding officer .. maybe that could happen <LOL>!

Terry