are pigeons really stupid

[soa99clf]

i am a psychology student at sheffield university(UK), and am currently doing a presentation on superstitions in pigeons. On a study conducted by BF Skinner found that they would repeat any behaviour in the prospect of being given food as a reward....even though the recieval of food was at intervals and totally independent of any performed behaviour. So why did they never learn that their superstitous behaviour was useless?????? are they really that dumb

[raynjudy]

Yes.

They're dumb enough to fly for the sheer joy of flight! At Disney World, again and again, they volunteer for the multiple releases of the white "doves" at the Magic Kingdom.

They were dumb enough to endow Julius Reuter with the foundation of his news agency--Reuters.

They were dumb enough to serve humankind with a 98% mission success rate in the last World War--and being from the UK, you should realize that they were dumb enough, to just possibly, have saved one of your ancestors, (they served in WWI too) and allow your presence here today.

They were dumb enough to impress B.F. Skinner in his studies at Harvard with a 300 plus object or icon visual memory--which they store indefinitely.

They were dumb enough, that after concluding
his groundbreaking studies of them--the confirming research for The Origin Of
Species--Charles Darwin had nothing but love and admiration for his pigeons.

They were dumb enough that King George I, decreed their droppings to be property of the crown!

They were dumb enough to bypass electronic jamming and deliver messages during "Desert Storm".

They're dumb enough to reverse-commute, feeding in the country and living in the city.

They're dumb enough to have convinced researchers at The University Of Montana, that columba livia (the pigeon), is "pound for pound one of the smartest, most physically adept creatures in the animal kingdom."

They're dumb enough to continue to confound researchers with their uncanny homing ability.

Their dumb enough to hear infrasound, see infrared, focus their eyes to the equivalent of an 8X binocular and detect faint magnetic fields and process the information from a battery of senses we're not even aware of!

They're dumb enough to be able to learn to use tools (I've seen this!).

They're dumb enough to have descended directly from dinosaurs, surviving even the
Great Impact that ended the cretaceous
era--an event we would not likely endure!

They're dumb enough to prefer our company and cooperate with our research.

In fact, they're so dumb, they've performed to exemplary standards, every reasonable task we've presented to them.

And they're dumb enough to continue to trust us today, despite being widely disparaged with comments like yours.

Yeah, they're pretty dumb.

--Ray

And one more thing...

They're too dumb to know, you can't spell dumb without "u".



[This message has been edited by raynjudy (edited 03-20-2001).]

[Joel]

OUCH!!!

[bigbird]

Your story is confusing....
So the birds learn something and continue to repeat the behavior. Then much later they get food. I do not see the connection.
How does Mr. Skinner come to the conclusion that learned behavior trainning has something to do with food if the food is not given to them at the time of the behavior?
Carl

[raynjudy]

He's saying (and I have not researched this) that B.F. Skinner showed that by rewarding a pigeon with food once or twice, for completing a task, the pigeon is soooo dumb, that it will perform the task repeatedly, even when food is not forthcoming.

A classic model is Pavlov's dogs. Fed when a bell rang, they eventually salivated when hearing a bell, even though food was denied.
Such was the conditioning.

In the movie, Shawshank Redemption, the freed inmate played (brilliantly) by Morgan Freeman, couldn't pee without asking the "Boss" for permission, such was the length of his incarceration. Hence, Palovian Conditioning in a human.

Does the smell of bread or pizza baking make you hungry? It does? Oops! Pavolved ya, bigbird!

This is all academic modeling and of zero value in the "real" world.

You misunderstand, Carl, because the point is so poorly made and the posting so poorly written.

Come to a pigeon lovers site, with a little knowledge and ask, "...are they really that dumb?"--how dumb is that?

Low marks all around.

--Ray

[lukekerttu]

go ray alright man you preach the truth

------------------
luke

[Marian]

Dear soa,
Perhaps it is the word "superstitious" that you've taken or chosen as your presentation topic, that is leading you to such a naive conclusion: that pigeons are dumb.
Humans will engage in ritualistic, repetitive behaviors when they are desperate, held captive in a hopeless situation. It would probably help you if you could imagine yourself in a similar situation--you are deprived of any semblance of normal life, you are locked in a small wire cage day and night, taken out only to be experimented on, starved, shocked, treated as though you have no emotional or physical feelings, with no hope of this ever ending. You have no contact with your own species. You have no one who loves or cares about you. You do not understand why you are being tormented. --You might develop some odd behaviors that you would use to comfort yourself such as rocking back and forth, talking to yourself, going to the same place you saw a morsel of food appear once
and going through the motions to see if your captors will give you another morsel somehow. What else is there to do?--- Now, suppose one of your captors observed your "dumb" behavior. Suppose that they had absolutely no sensitivity to the kind of anguish you would be going through that would prompt you to engage in such desperate behaviors. Suppose that, just to stay alive and have just a bit of hope, you still pushed yourself through the motions that got you a morsel of food a few times. Just suppose. Not that it could ever happen to humans. Of course we're not including all of those millions of concentration camp prisoners who eventually couldn't tell reality from the dream world that they had to retreat to, just to stay alive from hour to hour.
If you really wanted to "present a topic" to your esteemed colleagues, one that would depart from the usual condescending such presentations, you might want to do a self-assessment, to see if you had any sense at all of another sentient creature's pain and feeling, and if your thoughts and opinions were based on animal racism.
This might help you differentiate between "superstitious" and desperate behaviors; and you might make a presentation that might actually be worth something in terms of your audience coming to a new awareness of fellow creatures.
I hope you can be successful in this.
Sincerely,
Marian

[ludus54]

Props to you Ray. You are one TOP NOTCH bird. I love this site!!!

Ludus

[bigbird]

Wow....sometimes I wonder why I love pigeons so much...then I read something like this and I am again reminded why they are so deserving.
Thanks to all of you,
Carl