Avian Pox Questions

[Eileen]

I've been around this forum for a while, dano. You might not like my opinion, but you also don't know how many people I have helped save birds here too.

If you don't agree with me that's fine, but there is no call - in any forum - for swearing and attitudes. I guess everybody is *not* entitled to their opinions, as you stated in your previous post.

I know enough people here to trust that is not the behavior wished reflected here and hope that it ends now with this thread.



[This message has been edited by Eileen (edited June 07, 2004).]

[AZWhitefeather]

How wonderful is it that this site is blessed with such knowledge, provided by all our members?

How equally sad is it that sarcastic, & inappropriate remarks need to be made because opinions differ.

Cindy

[AZWhitefeather]

"there is no call - in any forum - for swearing and attitudes."

I agree 100% Eileen.

"I know enough people here to trust that is not the behavior wished reflected here and hope that it ends now with this thread."

Agreed again.
Cindy

[Trees Gray]

Hi Eileen,

Thank you for taking the time to explain the facts from your side of it.

I deal with healthy home cared pigeons, that I am able to give the pox vaccine too for prevention. They only get the mild form of the disease and get over it quickly. They live in a loft with mosquito netting on all open areas. They are not exposed to all the elements, and have a stress free life.

I'm sure it is different seeing this disease full blown in birds, and much harder to deal with.


Treesa

[EarthaPidge]

I am absolutely stunned by the attack on Eileen made on this public forum for two reasons....1) attacks on any forum where different opinions and experiences are valuable are totally unproductive, inappropriate, and cruel; and 2) Eileen is one of the most compassionate, experienced, and intelligent people I know--I value her opinion(s) quite highly especially since she works in an environment that is quite different from that of most individual rescuers here on the East Coast.

Essentially, all of the public brings their rescues to the wildlife center where Eileen works, so she sees numbers that I just don't see since I work for a small animal clinic that only deals with wildlife on "the side."

Such comments make people (including myself) not want to post on this forum ever again since we can never be sure if someone will blast us because our opinion and experiences are different from their's. Everyone's opinion is legitimate.

We deal with the harsh reality that there are no resources to care for a lot of the sick birds/animals that come across our paths. I feel lucky as a vet to have the ability to legally and humanely euthanize animals that have poor prognoses.

Because of our lack of resources, our goal is always to treat and release the most promising patients. Putting an animal down is always a sad scene, but we do it the kindest and most gentle way we know. We hold them, we speak softly to them, we sedate them prior to euthanizing them. It is all very peaceful. It is certainly better than freezing or starving to death on the street. I euthanized the sweetest little baby field mouse yesterday who was slowly circling and almost dead. I was very grateful to the young person who was kind enough to bring him in and not let him die a slow death on the sidewalk.

You are all very lucky to not have to deal with the reality of euthansia on a daily basis. Just let me assure you, it is not something we take lightly or cavalierly...ever. Luckily I do not need a forum like this to ask for Eileen's opinion should she decide not to post in the future (and I wouldn't blame her). I am fortunate to be able to just call her on the phone.

-Laura

[dano7]

Eileen, I didn’t question that you saved birds or that you do not have skill, since I copied your work on the tar issue just yesterday. My point is that you said you did the world a favor by killing the carriers of pox; does this mean you kill all the birds with Paratyphoid since often an adult bird that has overcome the disease remains a carrier and continues to produce infected droppings? Do you kill all the birds with canker, since most every pigeon has some trichomonads in it’s body even after treatment. In health, every time the parent bird feeds its youngsters, it passes on some of its own trichomonads to them. So they are all carriers. And what about PMV birds—are they assumed to be in that class of birds to put down? I agree there is a time for mercy killing, but I question your criteria.

Jennifer, your original post spoke about a bird with pox and you went on about a number of details, so if you chose to bring this to the forum, why did you fail to mention the important symptoms. That led us to question your judgment. Now that the story changes, it appears to be a self serving fabrication. Maybe it’s not and maybe it is.

[EarthaPidge]

"My point is that you said you did the world a favor by killing the carriers of pox;"

Eileen did not say this. What she did say is this:

"We try to save whatever we can that can be responsibly released , & there is always a lot of controversy when a pox bird comes in."

Obviously there are lots of conditions in birds that are inherent to a lot of feral populations and I am pretty sure the wildlife center does not euthanize a bird because it has trich, etc. I believe Eileen is talking here about birds that have very severe cases of pox that are not good candidates for rehabilitation. Eileen doesn't indiscriminantly euthanize birds at her job. There are a lot of considerations and opinions that are pooled before a decision is made. All decisions are made in the best interest of the animal and the environment.

About 99% of NY could care less about pigeons and Eileen and I happen to care about them enough to rehab them on our own, outside of our regular workplaces.

As far as I'm concerned, one of the kindest acts is taking the time and the effort to pick up a suffering animal off the street, whether to be humanely euthanized (if it cannot be rehabbed) or rehabilitated. And the original poster did just that. I can't tell you how many times I have seen scores of people walking past a suffering pigeon on the sidewalk or in a stairwell just pointing and trying to get as far away from the creature as possible. They are usually equally disgusted when I reach down and scoop the bird up.

[Trees Gray]

Hi Laura,

It is very sad to see the plight of our feral flock, it upsets me greatly.

I'm sure you see a lot of suffering pigeons and those left dying.

Your work is wonderful as well as the work Eileen does. I have great respect for anyone who picks up a dying bird, or pigeon, and gives it comfort in its last moments on earth, that is equally important. I have done this myself, and it is a very emotional experience. I have wrapped them gently in warm cloth and spoken to them sweetly and watch their eyes close.

Because of my feelings towards pigeons, I'm easily provoked by the ignorance of people,for example, there are people who indisciminately will take pigeons to animal control because they have lice and are dirty, without knowing any facts on pigeons. I would have agreed with the original poster, if she had given me all the facts, as my first priority was only for the pigeons welfare.

Treesa

[This message has been edited by Trees Gray (edited June 08, 2004).]

[cyro51]

I sincerely hope that nobody stops posting here because of a little spat, but would like to remind everyone that we all love pigeons and want to do what is best for them: sarcasm and insults are inappropriate ways of communicating and do nothing to heal a situation! If there are things that we need to say we should endeavour to say them as gently as possible...although I accept that even the gentlest worded reprimand can cause hostility!

Having said that my own view is that before a pigeon that is neither fatally ill or fatally wounded is euthanased all other options should be explored, and that is what this forum is here for even though that exercise can in itself can be painful for members...there could be someone in this group that could offer an alternative to death.

My reason for saying this is that I was recently handed a mangled wood pigeon that had to have a wing amputated. I knew from a rehabber friend that wood pigeons suffer a too much stress to live satisfactory lives in captivity and the vet also warned me of this (having been briefed by the same friend!) and recommended euthanasia. I accepted his advice without asking for the opinion of my fellow pigeon lovers and have bitterly regretted that because I have since found that there are members who have been able to provide handicapped wood pigeons a happy home and one would have done the same for this one. I am convinced now that my decision that the wood pigeon could not live happily in captivity was premature and very probably wrong. All animals should be given the chance to live if that is at all possible.

Cynthia

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All beings are fond of themselves, they like pleasure, they hate pain, they shun destruction, they like life and want to live long. To all, life is dear; hence their life should be protected.

-Mahavira

[phyll]

JGregg,

My post was written because I was not aware of your extensive avian experience.
If the poor little pigeon was dying & could not be saved, I apologize.
Only you know the truth. Not for anything, but you did neglect to fully explain his/her condition.

phyll

[JGregg]

I apologize for my sarcasm. You may note that on the third correspondence I gave the full symtoms of the bird, this is hardly witholding information. What was the point of talking about the euthanized pigeon anyways? Beating a dead horse comes to mind. The euthanized bird is dead, I wanted to focus on the possible impact on my healthy pets.

I've said nothing when I pick birds up to be rehabilitated (I don't need my actions judged), but if one needs to be put down I'm suddenly the great killer of pigeons! Everybody here could do very well to think before jumping to conclusions (myself included). Obviously I have been on the site for almost a year, so I must care about pigeons right? It would then follow that I wouldn't be taking all of the pigeons I've found to be put down. The pigeon must have been put down for a reason, not just because it "looked sick".

Here is a good way to deal with someone that had a sick bird put down without castigating them. Praise them for actually caring enough to pick the bird up, then ask (without getting emotional) what was wrong with the bird. Establish which conditions are nessisary for the bird to be put down, so the next time they pick up a bird they will have the ability to make an informed choice. If you jump all over people they are then less likely to pick up any more birds in the future. If the birds are not picked up they will suffer more, this is clearly not desirable.

Dano, I didn't go into detail about the bird's condition for the first two times I posted on this subject. I just said the bird may have had pox and was dying, what more do you need to know? I went into more detail because I was badgered, where I changed the story is beyond me. Do you feel better about yourself now that you've put me down? If this is what you need for self affirmation so be it, just leave me out (and Eileen too).

Note: My youngest pigeon is rescued from unnessiary euthanasia.



[This message has been edited by JGregg (edited June 08, 2004).]

[AZWhitefeather]

JGregg,
Although you apologized for your sarcasm, you continue to embellish your posts with unnecessary & inappropriate statements, which will only escalate an already negative situation.

Before this issue gets any further out of line, I'm going to close this thread.
Cindy

Please note:
You have brought out some good points in your post.
Unfortunately when one continues to 'agitate' another, it needs to be stopped.




[This message has been edited by AZWhitefeather (edited June 09, 2004).]