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Absolutely! That's why I think this group of people on P-T with their experience and results for the use of various drugs or products on "off-label" applications (ie, the fishpond stuff for canker) should collect this information and publish it as a resource guide. Antedotal experience is what led us (as a species) to identify willow bark as a fever reducer . Scientific observation and study of these experiences allowed a chemist to identify and then manufacture the active compounds ("asprin") for our use. Here, we have the same system operating (experience and observation) which is why I think this collective has such great value and is a wonderful resource. (aside -- My personal ethics would not allow me to purposely infect or damage a living organism to see what happens when you dose it with this or that. I would make a lousy medical researcher.) |
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Well, Warren, I think you're asking a much larger question than you know. Or actually want to wade through, for that matter.
You've heard of the "double-blind study"? That's to TRY and negate the "placebo effect" by way of not only keeping the people taking the drugs from knowing whether they're getting the real thing or not, but to also keep the people GIVING the drugs from knowing. For us, you can actually heal quite a few things by simply BELIEVING. The substance that you're taking in such cases is nothing more than something to focus on. People generally don't grasp the signficance of that. You can call it "mind-over-matter" or whatever you want, but it IS a VERY significant factor. With animals, it's a bit different, of course, seeing as how the placebo effect would be far more limited. I believe that sometimes they can be infused with our desires and wishes for them to try and live, and that that can help. It's a matter of the spirit and useless to even try and observe "in the lab". I'm not sure that my interest in and discussion about things like this is actually compatible with yours though, Warren. Loft management and flying performance is a completely different thing than what those of us who rehab do and, I tend to think, requires a different approach. My loft is populated by birds that were dying of injuries and diseases because they were unlucky or are lesser individuals to begin with. Many of them have internal organs that have been ravaged by disease to the point where they're functioning on a limited basis. Many of them have refractory disease (difficult or impossible to completely eradicate) and will, in time, cause recurrent infections that may spread to the others. This kind of thing cannot be tolerated in a flyer's loft, especially in an exceptional one. The philosophical difference boils down to how our views differ with respect to the individual versus the group. On Pigeon-Talk, there is an uneasy truce most of the time between the rehabbers and the flyers and the peace is mostly kept by an unwritten policy of "don't ask, don't tell". I'm all for keeping it that way. I don't think most folks want to go too in-depth on the raw data "from the lab" nor how it's interpretted, though. I rather doubt that there is enough commercial value to warrant any true lab testing for pigeons per se because it's usually rather expensive to do conclusively. Typically, though, medicinal products are tested against the pathogens in question, the species usually being of secondary relevance. You run into some things that some species don't tolerate too well but there don't seem to be too many things to worry about with pigeons. That said, the use of probiotics IS known to be very helpful in certain circumstances so that's one for you. I was hoping that the next time I find a pigeon with consistent worm eggs in the fecal that I could try the Chaparral Tea. My life took a horrible turn towards "busy-beyond-belief" just a few months ago so there's a lot I have been meaning to do but just haven't had the time. I still haven't gotten around to testing the garlic deal. Now, THAT will be a very simple and very conclusive test for what I wanted to get out of it. Anyhow, Warren, I specifically remember somebody once saying that they kept having recurrent E. coli problems in their loft. I don't know how they know that, whether they'd done cultures or what. But, maybe cranberries would pan out for them--it's one of those things that's highly unlikely that any lab will provide any kind of "thumb's up or down" for their situation so it'd have to be relegated to the "well... let's give a try and see what happens" method. Pidgey |
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If someone has a recurrent e.coli problem in their loft, they can have a loft-specific vaccine developed for them by a vet who works w/pigeons and
performs this service for racers/breeders. fp |
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Hi Flitsnowzoom, Oh... Lol... I am way sleep deprived lately...and liable to more than usual glitches I am sure. Interesting article regardless...and, for all I know, they may be quite correct...or at least have a good case. Likely, to me anyway, it would mase sense to examine the diets and habits and other particulars of those who never have bladder infections, and to compare those with the diets and habits and other particulars of those who do, to see what co-relations are inferred in that 'research'. Rather than, or subsequent to, a development of a chemical or extract or drug which appears to address the problem abstractly, while not preventing it in an incidental way, the first place. But certainly a regimen which can reduce or eliminate the problem, is very valuable ( if it is for real), and at most, should be a stop-gap recourse, pending research with seeks to understand the problem as something incidental to other factors, and to determine what those factors are, and what can reasonably be done with them to benifit those who might be or become afflicted. Thanks... Phil Las Vegas |
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Hi Pidgey, all... Or, to aspire to remember that the afflicted posess an 'Immune System" or a global state or cindition of Health...which had been compromised for their having hosted the mischief in the first place. Typically, nothing is ever done to care for the afflicted's Immune System, or global Health, but what is done, is to address an abstract symptom or technically identifiable/isolatable problem or pathogen, adminster Drugs for 'that', and to ignore everything else. 'Medicine' as a whole has ignored this in almost every kind or class of situation, but for 'hiv' and some few others, where, they seem to recall, grudgeingly, that an Immune System or Global Organism exists, at least academically, and as an aside. This to me is far from upholding pretenses or pretexts of 'Science', or even of common sense. Phil Las Vegas |
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Hi John, Quite so... "Berimax" is one product which is not formally allowed to be a recognised Medicine, without many many many millions of dollars being spent to jump-through-the-hoops of the fda and others. All reports of it's use thta I could find, were completely favorable. For Canker or related Trichomoniasis conditions, my own experience is that it is the most effective, kindest, easiest on even five day old Babys wno never showed any hint of compromise for the Medicine being in their systems, is very forgiving dosage wise, and also that others have reported it to elimainte any discoverable traces of the Trichomonads in the Bird's system, includeing 'resistant' strains. One could hardly ask for more... I see no reason why other 'Natural' drugs or compounds or Botanical or Vegetative extracts or derivitives would not prove similarly effective for certain things they happen to be effective for. If something 'works' reliably, I see no reason for it to be disparaged or invalidated simply for want of government sanction or proffering by multinational pharmaceutical houses. Phil Las Vegas |
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Hi flitssnowzoom,
Below...amid...some fun... Quote:
Yes...and or potentially "yes"...or could be better, anyway, but I am grateful for what there is, and very... Quote:
And some the 'best' Medical people alive, then and since, have said that if the 40-50 or 60 odd Million people who died in the 1918-1919 Influenza epidemic had NOT taken 'Aspirin', they'd almost all have lived to tell their tales of transient fevers, sweats and mialgias and maybe some bouts of nausia and so on, instead of being corpses. Aspirin by then WAS very very popular and widely available just about everywhere...and was universally resorted to in fevers of any kind. Why do we believe we need to reduce Fevers every time, always, in every instance of their occuring? Where is the 'science' or the sound impirical evaluations there, for that? Everyone compulsively wishes to eliminate or reduce fever...as if the fever was the 'problem'. No one questions it. People typically speak of or spoke of so-and-so as "...having a Fever..." or 'died of fever'...as if THAT were the issue. Not that so-and-so had some underlieing systemic infection or virus or enteric or other illness to which the Body's response was for one thing, to occasion a Fever to slow the reproductive rate of the invasive or opportuning Organisms so the Body's Immune system could catch up to the challange of the circumstance's exigencys...and mediate them. Yet, "that" just might have been the real factor in the appauling mortality of the 1918-1919 'flu... Top government and Industry insiders and advisors know this of course, tacitly, as they 'know' so many other things...but things "like" a 'potential' Influenza epidemic happenning again, help those who want to own everything, own everything...knowledge and information as well, if not as pre-requisite. Now we are told the 'Pentagon' will adminster 'Marshal Law' if the 'bird flu' DOES seem 'imminent'. Nice, huh? They are calling for possibly 3 million 'deaths' from bird 'flu, and this of course will necessitate 'Marshal Law' being imposed. We loose nearly a million people a year from agrregiously blatant medical "healthcare" screw ups, and this has been attested to by ex-heads of the CDC. That is well over 3 million in any five year time span. No one every seems to say anything about 'that'...it is of no concern, it makes lots of money! Did not our president or by proxy and his golf buddys and Goldfish and so on buy out or own all the 'bird 'flu vaccine' futures in a timely well in 'advance' way? As well as owning or owning by proxy, the patents or rights to manufacture it? And the rights to distribute it? and the mandates TO make everyone take it when they see fit? Or else? and so on? His calling for pre-emptive strikes useing the military, against wild Species of Birds anywhere in the World who 'they' felt might be threatening to people or to the meat lobby generally? You know, kinda like all those American Airline stocks they dumped in August? some weeks 'before' them 'towers'? They also own vast holdings in provate out-sourced and contract private-sector 'prison' stocks and futures...where people will be put in times of 'Marshal Law' being imposed...or if womeone refuses a 'vaccine'. To say nothing of the vast network of inturnment 'Camps' which 'fema' is in charge of. Does 'that' tell us anything? There's "no" business...like 'show' business, is there? No... Like so much else... I have had high sustained fevers, more than once in childhood, and a few later... 106 - 107 anyway when they checked...and I did not have any Aspirin, or for whatever reason, was not given any, or, I refused it when offered...and all tolled, I got over the illness by myself doing nothing special at all, ( but for maybe eating lots of fresh ripe Pine Apple, Grapefruits, or other fruits, or cold roast pork Sandwhiches with Miricale whil and Black Pepper, Lol...which I recall craving at the time) and was fine afterward. I imagine others could do so also. Later, I wondered why fevers were so compulsively regarded as something to be gotten rid of, when fevers are the Body's manner of it's own self management, and manner of effecting it's relations with not-wanted tresspassers or infections, viruses, tumors, and so on. Later, I read old research form the 'oos, 'teens, 'twentys, and some newer, some current, saying the same as their summary appreciations. Various Cancers, in addition to various kinds of Tumors and other conditions also were sometimes found to be eliminated by incidental and high-ish Naturally occuring fevers from something else, which were let run their course without Aspirin. But of course 'this' was too 'simple' for a multibilliondollar or now multitrilliondollar industry and lobby and interlocking board of directors and stiock holders who are hand in glove with governments, as well as hireing ex-givernment higher-ups on their otherwise 'retirement' to want to hear about, or, to conceed, unless they could be in charge of the 'fevers', unless they could somehow controll it to charge great sums for doing it for you, to you... and charge you or me or our insurance company a couple hundred grand to let us have one of their artificial ( and do they work as well? No...) 'fevers' to aid in some recovery process. And of course this is not as good as how things are otherwise, so... Never neglect 'public opinion' as an influencial decider of 'reality'...especially when it is gratituously and otherwise pandered to for money and power over it...and cultivated in the first place, for money, and power over it, too... THAT is the biggest 'Industry' of all... Quote:
Which 'use' sadly, does not appear to have been evaluated with sufficient interest or open mindedness or reason, to really do any justice to the subjects, or, to the pretenses of formalized medicine as-an-industry which wishes to insinuate itself into the 'mystique' of 'Science', at all. I like Aspirin very much for the occasional 'Headache', but too, if I drink enough Water or other appropriate Liquids, I do not get dehydrated to have a Head-ache in the first place. That Chemist, or those Chemists..."Bayer" ( or "Bauer" as it was then, ) even if innocently enough, just might have killed 50 million people...while no one, or rather, only some few insightful or intuitive lay or Medical observers, noticed what was 'really' happenning... THAT, is reality - almost no one noticing what IS "happenning" while experts pronounce on what 'they' notice...as abstractions. See those 'twin towers' again, for that matter... See lots of things we think we 'see', or get told... It is endless... Quote:
I agree... Far as I know there is really fairly little difference 'medically' between an Aves and a Hominid. But then too, on what scale? Maybe the differences are huge, maybe they are small...it will depend on what scale one is referencing. Some things will be toxic to some Birds, and some things will be toxic to most people which Birds handle well enough. Birds are generally hardier than people are...and have far faster metabolisms and little to no neurosis to complicate or conflict their intelligence and Body processes and viscerotonic and other conditions. Dosage-to-weight ratios of various Medicines will vary between Birds and People sometimes. Sometimes they need proportionately more, or less medicine for something, than we would, for the medicine to work optimumly. There are differences and they can be very important...but in Medical or Pharmaceutical contexts, likely the differences all tolled are smaller than or about the same as the differences between individual hominids, for that matter. All in all, Birds are greatly more advanced and sophisticated and evolved and effecient physically, and physiologically, than people are, and we do well to note this for our own edifications, and our respects to them. As Creatures, we excell in objectifying formalizations of mental models, or in objectifying our construences of theoretically isolated sub-systems 'as' Heiroglyphs or Vignettes of sorts...and that is about it. I, like everyone, admire and enjoy our abilitys to do what we do in these regards, or at least when such is pleasing anyway. Otherwise, we are crude, clueless, clumsey, inefficient scavengers and cowardly preditors...opportunistic medllers who contribute nothing positive to any ecosystems, and impose or opportune on others with little to no interest in those others or in the integrity of the systems those others belong to or are members of. If we died off as a Species tomorrow, we would likely not be missed by anyone...or for long. And our contributions variously to the Planet as a whole, would be more positive than is possible otherwise. Oye... Lol But in the mean time, there are possibility of learning...and of benevolent gestures between differing orders of Beings, and that, if nothing else, is something to find interesting, or, possibly, to cherish. Phil Las Vegas Last edited by pdpbison; 12th May 2007 at 04:05 PM. |
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It seems to have pretty good reports. As well as what I was reading about its use as a 'flock' treatment in drinkling water being effective, does it actually deal with the individual bird which has an ongoing, and possibly sever dose of canker? John
__________________
John  "Pigeons know more than we think - and think more than we know" ~ John D. |
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Well, I don't know about everyone else but I am thoroughly enjoying this thread. Sure gives you some things to "ponder" on. Keep it going - it is great!
__________________
Maggie |
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fp |
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Hi Phil,
Interesting post and very chewy. 'cause this multiquote thing has me stumped I just put my responses in a different font. Quote:
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Hi John, Yes... And it seems especially kind to Babys, and to frail Babys, where the Metronidazole or others can be a little rough on them. It also eradicates a long list of other inimicals, while appearently leaving desireable micro-organisms in the Bird's system. Too, in theory anyway, and likely in fact, if one were say in New Orleans after the Typhoons and soon, and all one had was the crappy sewage tainted and corpse tainted flood Waters to drink, you could fill a five gallon Can with that bad Water, dump in a few Tablespoons of 'Berimax', siphone and filter out the sediments if one wanted, wait most of a day or so, and then drink that water and be fine. Could come in very handy for disaster relief contexts...floods especially, where potable Water is a problem, as if having any way to Boil Water. Anyway, I will call the Makers of it sometimes soon and order a Case, instead of just one Bottle. I ran out a while ago and need to get more. However many Birds that Bottle treated ( 100?, 120?) I went through it... If one's flock drinks enough from a spot one can have say-so over, it would be great for flock treatments. If they drink there and elsewhere, one could make the mix more concentrated I suppose. Some people I knew here had some nesting Pigeons in their eve...the Nest had just pipped Babys, and there was reason to think the Babys would get Canker ( ie the last round of Babys did). I gave the people enough 'Berimax' for mixing two Gallons of Water, and they set a small Water Bowl, washed and refreshed daily, close to the eve Nest, and appearently all went well and the Babys got well and everyone was happy...and I expect it cleaned up the Parent's Trichomona issues nicely in order for this eventuation with the Babys being allright and all. Phil Las Vegas Last edited by pdpbison; 13th May 2007 at 12:24 PM. |
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Hi flitsnowzoom, Far worse yet than the added Sugar, are the 'Sulfites' used as preservatives...these, if you have Asthma or are liable to Apnea, can kill you. You eat some innocent-enough looking little snack of dried Apples or Apricots with sulfites in them, or have a glass of Wine or a couple Macaroons, of for whatever reason, you are shy on certain nutrients/viatmines and have too much 'sulphur' in yur system, or your Liver is compromised in some way...get sleepy-dopey first, then just decide to take-a-nap, and you fall asleep hard, and just stop breathing...and, if not your lucky day, you are quietly dead. Lots of people die from this, Sulfites in Wines, Macaroons, Cany Bars, dried Fruits, restaurant salads, on and on... Probably tens of thousands a year I'd guess. Coroners always get those "who the heck knows what did 'em in" ones, and some of these, are likely 'this'...and or they have ways of determing 'Apnea' as cause-of-death, if they feel like going to the trouble, whether or not they understand the actual mechanism of it having come about for the individual in question. Anyway, I'd say we should not give any Sulfite-Fruits or sulfite-anything to Birds, just to keep things on the safe side. Anyway... "Trader Joes", "Wild Oats" or other upscale good quality or 'hip' Grocers, will have various Certified Organic Dried Fruits of various kinds...as will any better Health Food Stores, or, buy direct, on-line, from making a few dozen or more tedious 'googles' to find Grower-Sellers or Sellers in various areas. The best dried tart Cherries seem to come from Michigan...these are a good Bird one, for just about any species of Birds who eat meat or are Vegitarian or omnivores...and great for snacks or adding to things, for us, too... I think fresh, Organic, ripe, off the Tree that day or yesterday, Berrys and other small Fruits are best of course, for Birds or us. If one can not get those, then the dried are a Godsend...and of course once the fresh Season is over, dried is the only recourse one has. Phil Las Vegas Last edited by pdpbison; 13th May 2007 at 12:22 PM. |
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unadulterated cranberries. fp |
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thanksThanks Phil and FeralP for the shopping suggestions.
People on this board are great!  |
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People searched for this, also searched for these: Hawk and snake ineract?snake killing pigeon eggs 'What does a snake do when it feels like having a lie down' Article |
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. Made with real EGGS too. 
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