I got Ivermectin!!!

[melissasue1968]

Many of you know how difficult it has been for me to find a proper vet and meds for our birds here. Well I finally got Ivermectin!
I am using it to treat for possible internal as well as external parasites. Our parakeets had red mites when we got them. I treated all the birds with a dip at that time, about a month ago. When doing so I discovered wing lice on the shaft of one of the outside pigeons. I figure where there is one there are probably many! Although the dip I used said on the package it is good for mites and lice, the vet told me it wouldn't kill the lice.?. Anyway, I haven't seen them again but that certainly doesn't mean they aren't there. So I want to treat all the birds. If I hit any unknown internal parasites as well so much the better!

Q. #1 I want to ask about the dosage. The vet said to give 0.2ml SQ per pigeon and dove. 0.1ml for our parakeets, also SQ.
I read somewhere that it can also be applied directly to the skin on the back. I have no problem giving them injections. Whatever is better.
Q. #2 We have an egg pipping out at the moment. The vet said it is OK to treat the parents. But I have much more confidence in your opinions! Do you think it is OK if I treat the parents now, as hopefully sometime in the next 24 hours they will be feeding a new squab! I want to treat everyone at once, but I don't want to jeopardise the health of this baby. We have waited so long for it's arrival we may have to have a party and shoot off fireworks when it finally emerges!
Thanks to everyone!
Yours, Melissa

[Maggie-NC]

Hi Melissa - here's what I know about Ivomec (Ivermectin):

Back of neck: 1 drop to back of neck every 3rd day for 21 days, stop for 3 weeks, then repeat. This is per a vet 7/5/05.

I have also given it orally but never through injection. The materials I've looked at as far as dosage agree with what your vet told you, but I believe the 0.1 is the concentration of the Ivomec and may not be the dosage amount. I would ask him about this. You might also ask him if you could give it orally because unless you have some experience with the SQ it can get tricky. So far I have managed to avoid giving shots in the shoulder area (for anything) but manage IM fine. One note I had said to combine the 0.1 cc Ivomec with 0.9 cc. sterile water for SMALL birds but nothing about adding the water for larger birds. It does sound like your vet knows what he is doing, but ask him to be precise on the dosage. I looked at a bottle that I have on hand. The instructions read: "For mites. Give 0.06 ml orally for each 200 grams of body weight. Repeat once weekly for 4-6 weeks." The 0.1 ml would be a whole lot of Ivomec.

I have no idea if it would hurt your baby so hopefully someone else can answer that question.

maggie

[Pigeonpal2002]

Hi Melissa,

Can you tell us what your bottle of ivomec says? the percentage and the kind (if it says so). There are different brands of ivomec here in Canada & the USA. There is an injectable, a "pour on", sheep drench etc.

The kind I use for treating pigeons is the injectable kind and it's clear like water. However, like Maggie...I've never injected it SubQ either. This kind I give orally. Now the pour on, from my understanding is the one that is used topically on the skin, I don't know how effective the injectable would be given this way. When applying the "pour on" topically, I have given 2-3 drops from an eyedropper on the back of the neck. The pour on is not meant to be given orally or SubQ however.

There is a formulation for the dosage but I can't find the company website right now. However, this drug is a fairly safe margin of error. When my vet first prescribed this drug she told me to give 0.16ml for my pigeons and they weigh around 950grams each. This is the dosage I follow now regardless of weight changes and I've never had a problem. So, going by the weight of an average pigeon, that would mean the dosage should be cut in half for a 450 gram pigeon (approx). I wouldn't give your birds any more than 0.1ml though, maybe a little less like 0.08.

With many wormers, they don't recommend giving them to breeding birds so I would be reluctant to treat them with the new squab. I'm also not sure exactly whether the same is true with Ivomec but it's better to be safe than sorry unless we can get confirmation that it's safe.

Get back to us with the brand you have and the percentage of ivomec and then we can decide which is best. But hold off for now because of the new chick.

[melissasue1968]

Oops! Sorry I forgot to give brand and concentration. Duh!

Nasromectin (Ivermectin 1%) for injection
Product of Vetwic Veterinary Division
El Nasr Pharmaceutical Chemicals Co. Egypt

Each 1ml contains 10mg. Ivermectin

For sheep, cattle, camel s.c. injection 50 mg/kg
**Other animals 200mcg/kgm b. wt. (s.c. inj. only)

When I worked in a small and large animal hosp. we also used the injectable type-orally for heartworm prevention for dogs, in a very tiny dose. But that was almost 20 years ago now.

How many mcg in a mg ? 100? 1000? (I've been out of the workforce for too long-too much Barney and Telletubbies dulls the brain!)

I can give the injections no problem. It would be less stressful for the birds and me to give orally or topically though. As long as it is effective.

I asked him about giving topically or orally-he said no, give it SQ. But maybe he is not familiar with giving it by another route so he could only reccomend what he knows.?.

It sounds like there are a lot of different ways to dose this. Oh boy, another dilema! The 0.06ml/ 200gm body weight sounds kind of close. For a 400gm bird that would be 0.12ml, right? Still that's about half the dose he reccomended. But let's say the birds are closer to 450gm. like Brad said. (unfortunately I don't have any way to weigh them precisely) But you have the oral type. Is it the same concentration as what I have?
It seems the only difference between the oral and injectable should be sterility and maybe a flavoring??? What do you think?

I want to find a one time dose if possible. Every 3 days for three weeks then repeating... is more administrations than I had hoped. We have a total of 16 birds I am planning to treat. 10 pigeons, 3 ringneck doves, and three parakeets.

Thanks, Melissa

[Pigeonpal2002]

Hi Melissa,

The stuff you have sounds like the same kind I have, injectable 1% ivomec. I'm at work right now but I will check my bottle when I get home to confirm this.

The injectable ivomec is meant obviously for injection, but it is also the one that is used to give orally to the birds, both methods are effective.

I'm wondering, perhaps the difference in dosage suggested here is because of injection vs. an oral dose. Maybe more is required for SubQ injection than is required for an oral dose. My vet used it orally herself - the injectable kind.

I wish I could find the companies website, check on the bottle to see if there is one given. I'll see what else I can find out a bit later

[Maggie-NC]

Hi Melissa - Boy, it sure is hard to figure out what to do, isn't it? I wish I had been able to read Brad's post before I took our Mr. Humphries to the vet this morning but I was running short of time. I would have asked her for some clarification. I had no idea that there may be a difference in the actual medication as far as the drop to the neck, or orally, or injectible. I know that Baytril, although the bottle says injectible, can be given orally.

I just had a minute to ask our vet about the Ivomec dosages - like if a bird weighed 350, what would the dose be, or how would I figure out what it would be. My vet said about .09 would be close enough. I told her that with 36 to treat, and the stress it causes trying to catch them, could I just dust them and she said that would be ok. So now I have probably thrown another wrinkle in your dilemma.

In any event, when we reworm ours September l, I'm just going to dust em.

maggie

[melissasue1968]

Wow! 36! That's a lot to treat! I haven't been able to find sevin dust here or I would use that too. Seems simpler. But since I have the ivermectin now I'm glad I will be able to (excuse the pun) 'kill two birds with one stone'!
I don't have any reason to believe they have internal parasites, but we have close to 80 wild birds, including morning doves, ringneck doves, pigeons, and sparrows that come to our courtyard to eat and drink everyday. We had one morning dove last week that was very sick and couldn't fly away. I tried to help it but it died after about 3 hours. It had really bad diarrhea. Because of all these wild birds, I want to try to prevent infections if I can. Our birds mingle with them directly.
I have to figure out how to discourage them from depending on us so much. We may be moving in a few months to a new house, and they are starting to stay here a lot. I don't want to leave and have all those birds suddenly left without a food or water source. I hate to admit it but it is also becoming too expensive. Our small flock doesn't eat that much, but I buy the best feed I can find, and the wild birds empty a very large, very full group feeder everyday! When we move I will have an aviary/loft built for our birds so they can't mingle with the wild birds and pick stuff up. But for now their houses are too small to be kept in all day long so I let them out during the day for exercise. They probably actually are big enough, I just feel they should have a lot of room .
It sounds like the general consensus is somewhere around one tenth of an ml. for the pigeons. I'll wait till I here more though. Any ideas about the dose for the ringneck doves, and parakeets?
Thanks, Melissa

[Pigeonpal2002]

Hi Melissa,

I am sorry I meant to get back to you about the ivomec...seems like yours is the same kind I have, Ivomec injectable 1%, 1ml contains 10mg of ivermectin.

I think you are safe to use anywhere from 0.08-0.1 mls of the drug. It really does have a very good record for safe use. This drug was made for farm animals... namely, horses, cows, pigs, sheep etc. This drug is not "approved" for use in birds but please don't let that worry you. It's been used for birds for a long time as well as other species very successfully.

Here is what Maggie said about dosages and I think this is pretty accurate:

Originally Posted by Lady Tarheel

The instructions read: "For mites. Give 0.06 ml orally for each 200 grams of body weight.

So, a Ringneck dove could weigh anywhere from 125-150 grams so just adjust accordingly. Say around 0.05 for a ringneck and perhaps a wee bit less for a ring neck parakeet.

The ivomec is good for a small flock of birds but not efficient for a large group to treat individually. Ivomec will kill a large number of internal and external parasites; thread worms, round worms, intestinal flukes, mites in and on the body and a lot more...most of which aren't a concern to pigeons anyway.

Hope this helps and sorry that you may be losing your internet for awhile.

[Maggie-NC]

Brad, a question - has there ever been any info posted about meds and correct dosages per gram weight? I see so much about meds on here - like the Ivomec question - that it sure would be helpful to have something to pull up. I maintain a table with weights from 100 grams to 600 grams for meds like Bactrim, Nystatin, Metronidazole, Pyrantel/Strongid - all of which we have used for years and it has been really helpful. It's also easy to get confused over the 0.01, 0.1 and 1.0 amounts.

maggie

[Pigeonpal2002]

Hi Maggie,

It's been very hard for me to find exact dosages for birds using ivomec because of the fact this drug was created for use with farm animals. When I was looking at my package instructions this morning, it even gives different dosages for cattle & sheep as opposed to pigs.

Because I've always been told and have read that it has a very safe application, I've always gone by the intial dosage my vet prescribed for my pigeons originally. Then, I've adjusted the amounts as needed with different weights. I know, doesn't sound very precise but many of the "old pigeon pros" just give 3 drops on the back of the neck or down the throat as their dosage. Therefore, with this particular drug, I tend to not worry too much about how precise it actually is. Of course I would want an exact dosage if I could find one for birds

[melissasue1968]

Brad, I sent you an email.
The formulary I mentioned said that parakeets (I mean budgies) which is what I meant in my earlier post, but the way I wrote it was not clear-sorry-
anyway it says that budgies and some types of finches have died from being given the regular dose of ivermectin. Do you or anybody know if there is a safe dose for them?
I tried to copy that section and paste it here but it didn't work. I am going to try to do it another way....

So a good dose seems to bo be around 0.1ml, give or take 0.02ml. I have two birds that are quite a bit larger than the others, so I should probably give them the higher dose and keep the others at 0.08ml.

What would you do? Give it SQ, topically, orally?

Also what about the old pigeon pros? I tend to trust these guys with real experience. Maybe I should just give the three drops on the back?

The vet also wasn't sure what I meant by parakeets/budgies-my husband told him canary-so if I could find out the proper name of a budgie in Arabic, he might tell me not top use it on them-see above about the formulary...

Somewhere here there is a post about giving it by the drop to the back. I need to go find it too and give the link to you.

Thanks, Melissa

[melissasue1968]

The following is a copy of an old post with yet another method of dosing. I can't find the post yet that I saw before that told how many drops to put on the back-it was something like 4 drops for a pigeon, 3 for a dove, 2 for a parakeet, 1 for a finch...Wish I could find it....there are pages and pages when I search under lice/ivermectin. and my internet time is running out...
Thanks, M (ivermectin bit is at the bottom)


#4 8th October 2001, 04:33 AM
raynjudy
Matriarch Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 2,300


Here is a cross-post from my friend Marian, from another forum. It will answer some of your questions.

Question: are you checking for normal droppings to see if the pigeon is eating?

--Ray

************
You can clean the birds in stages so as not to stress them too much.
Clean what look like serious wounds first, i.e. still bleeding or puncture
type, and any wounds on or about head and neck.
Use warm water with betadine added (to color of weak tea--about l TB of
betadine to 2-3 cups of water). If you have a syringe (no needle, l0 cc or
larger) , just keep flushing the wound and removing loose bits of dried
blood, dirt, etc. If no syringe, use gauze pads (alot) soaked in the
water and gently clean each wound area. Cotton balls have too many fibers
that will stick in wounds. You can wrap the bird in a handtowel to
immobilize him. When you're working on areas other than the head, cover the
head with the cloth which will calm him. Alot easier with two people. The
person holding the bird is responsible for observing if the bird is getting
too stressed, so you can stop when it needs a rest. Open-mouth breathing,
fighting, agitation are reasons to stop for the bird to rest.

After you finish a cleaning session, apply triple antibiotic cream to each
wound--just a very thin layer so it doesn't get smeared in the face or over
feathers.

Clean more areas after the bird rests a few hours. If too stressed, wait
for another day.

Check for hidden wounds, especially where you see matted, sticky feathers.
I'm assuming the blood is from pecking by other birds, but they might have
been dog or cat attacked, given they were so badly cared for when you found
them. If you see what looks like a cat or dog puncture wound in one area,
there will likely be an opposing bite wound on another side of the body.

Meds: They can be started on Baytril or TMS (pediatric Bactrim).

Baytril dose is l5 mg per kg of body weight. It comes in tablets of 22.7 mg
each.
Crush two tablets and add to l0 cc of pharmaceutical syrup. This will give
a concentration of 4.54 mg per cc. Doesn't need to be refrigerated. Will
keep for at least 3 weeks.
If your bird weighs, for example, 0.300 kg:
0.300 kg x l5 mg per kg weight divided by 4.54 mg per cc = l cc of
Baytril
Shake well before drawing each dose. If you use apple juice instead,
keep refrigerated and make new batch after 5-6 days.

If you use TMS instead, this already comes mixed and ready to use. Dose is
30 to 60 mg per kg of body weight. (I use 60 mg). Shake well before
drawing up. To calculate a dose for, say a 0.300 kg bird: 0.300 kg x
60 mg per kg weight divided by 48 mg per cc = 0.38 cc of TMS
Both meds are twice a day for 7-l0 days. Doesn't need fridg. Keep both
meds out of light when storing.

Check birds for trichomonas by looking into their mouths (pen flashlight or
regular flashlight) for any cheesy white-yellow clumps near back of throat.

If mouths are clean and clear, go ahead and treat them for trich anyway by
giving each a Carnidazole tablet once. If they do have the trich
symptoms, give the Carnidazole tablet but repeat the dose in 2 days, then a
third time, in another 2 days. ( There are a variety of different dosing
instructions about this med in different books. There is a wide safety
range in dosing.)

You can wash the feet and tail/wing feathers with running water (one person
holds, the other does the light rubbing). Don't submerge the whole
body--too much stress and chance for chilling. Just do a part at a time.

Put them in a warm, quiet box to rest.

Make sure they are drinking plenty of water. They are probably mildly
dehydrated.

They should be kept separate from your other birds, in quarantine, with
separate implements, food, etc. Wash hands before and after handling them.

They should also be treated for parasites. Check feathers, particularly
undersides of wings for lice, mites, etc. If you see these, or if you see
feathers that look eaten, dust the birds lightly with Sevin dust (from
garden or vet supply store). Keep the dust out of their faces (and yours)
and dust lightly in a ventilated area. You can use a new, l-2 inch paint
brush, dipped in the Sevin and brushed onto the feathers.

Internal parasites--all new birds over 25 days old should be treated for
this with Ivermectin (Ivomec).
Dose is oral, 200 mcg (micrograms) per kg of body weight.
I assume your vet has this, but if not, you can buy a small bottle of it
from a vet supply or good feed store. Make sure it has a far expiration
date as small bottles cost around $40. It's really handy to have this at
home. Then, get a bottle of propylene glycol from pharmacy (may be by
prescription). It can't be mixed with anything else to be effective.

To mix: draw up 0.l cc of Ivermectin (this is just one tenth of a cc, NOT
one cc). You'll use a one cc syringe with a needle to do this. Combine
that with 9.9 cc of the propylene glycol, so that you have a total of l0 cc
of the mixture. Concentration will be l00 mcg per cc. You can put this
solution into a small, clean pill bottle. It should be very well shaken
before drawing up each dose. Store at room temp, away from light. Shelf
life about 3 weeks before you need a new batch. The Ivomec will expire long
before use use even a fraction of it.

To figure the dose:
For a 0.300 kg bird x 200 mcg per kg weight divided by l00 mcg per cc =
0.6 cc once.
Repeat this in 3 weeks.

I'm sure they are already two happy fantails. I'm glad that you have a
kind vet.

Best,
Marian

************
End
raynjudy
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[Skyeking]

Originally Posted by melissasue1968

I don't have any reason to believe they have internal parasites, but we have close to 80 wild birds, including morning doves, ringneck doves, pigeons, and sparrows that come to our courtyard to eat and drink everyday. We had one morning dove last week that was very sick and couldn't fly away. I tried to help it but it died after about 3 hours. It had really bad diarrhea. Because of all these wild birds, I want to try to prevent infections if I can. Our birds mingle with them directly.

Hi melissasue,

I don't mean to add more to what you are already focusing on, but in regards to the above, are the wild birds eating and drinking from the same containers that your domestic birds are eating from?

If they are, that may be exposing your birds to all kinds of problems. Probably will be good, once you treat all the birds for parasites, to make sure they eat seperately from all the wild birds, in their own containers.

[Pigeonpal2002]

Hi Melissa,

In the post you referred to, I don't really know why they were suggesting to mix ivomec with propylene glycol. Perhaps this was a much stronger percentage of ivomec by volume they were mentioning and it needed to be diluted.

As I said, your bottle of ivomec as you described it seems to be the same kind I have, the 1% ivomec, INJECTABLE. This kind doesn't need to be diluted or mixed with anything. I use it orally only with my birds with no problems. I don't know how to inject it, nor would I attempt it. If you know how to inject it safely, then you can do it this way or administer orally. I am not sure how effective this particular kind of ivomec would be if it was applied on the skin because it's not meant for that type of application as far as I know.

The "pour-on" ivomec that I've had before is stronger I believe, and it's not clear, it's got a blue tint to it. It also smells strong of alcohol...this kind is only meant to be given on the skin. All the newer ivomecs now do not need to be mixed with anything though, you apply the product as is, using the right brand for either topical, oral or injection applications.

If I were you, I'd give about 0.08ml to your pigeons if they are a good size and work from there with your other birds. The doves, perhaps 0.04 and with your budgie, I would give a very tiny amount, maybe 0.01 ml if you can.

I once gave Henny about 7 or 8 drops with Ivomec pour on topically using an eyedropper. It was by accident and I didn't see that there were drops coming out of the dropper because her feathers were in the way. Nothing happened to her and no overdose was apparent in any way, but it was way too much.

I've never heard of any animal dying from ivomec but that doesn't mean it hasn't happened. I trust this medication and it works well for me. If you are not comfortable or afraid to use it, this is your decision

Good luck, hope you will still get this

[Skyeking]

Originally Posted by Pigeonpal2002

Hi Melissa,

In the post you referred to, I don't really know why they were suggesting to mix ivomec with propylene glycol. Perhaps this was a much stronger percentage of ivomec by volume they were mentioning and it needed to be diluted.)

Brad,

They use the Propylene Glycol as a carrying agent for the Ivomec Cattle wormer. Veterinary tests say without the propylene glycol mixed with Ivomec, it would move too quickly through the pigeon system. The mix sticks better to the pigeons intestines giving it more time to work against worms.

Dosage: 4 parts Propylene Glycol to 1 part Ivormec. 3 drops down the throat, 2 times a year- per Global Pigeon