Old Birds-Nutrition

[Thunderbird]

On the related topic of oldest pigeons, Christina wrote some very interesting points when she brought up hookbills vs. pigeons. I normally keep apple-cider vinegar in the water as part of my health program. I found that the older guys can't handle that with any high protein feeds. They get gout very easily, so there is definitely some considerations that need to be taken. Arthritis sets in as well, and calcium is needed. I occasionally find pieces of "drywall" on the road and the birds love it! (same basic content as pick-stones). If you save your chicken egg shells, let them dry a coupldays, then crush them with a potato masher or something, the birds like that as well. Recycling at its best!!!

[Trees Gray]

That leads me to another question: As pigeons get older do they also have a harder time absorbing nutrients, like clacium?(As older people do)

Older pigeons probably do require more nutrition and easier digestable forms. I'm thinking liquid calcium, the one that gets instant results....for the future when I have aging hens!

I guess loads of nutritious, and varieties of foods will help!

what do you think Dano?

Treesa

[fred130]

Treesa,
I've found that as my parrots grow older, they have less ability to utilize calcium and as a result, their toenails and beaks tend to grow longer, faster.
It is probably the same way with pigeons.
Some time ago, I had written Cornell University about the aging process and nutritional requirements in birds and received a response back that there had been no studies done in that area so we are pretty much alone in facing this. One thing I think we could all do is increase the vitamin and mineral intake and reduce the amount of protein.

[fred130]

Treesa,
We are both thinking along similar lines. I use liquid Calcium Gluconate in the water.

[Trees Gray]

Fred,

I also feel that older pigeons cannot utilize the vitamins and minerals in the preparations that are out there either, and they should be given less of these. A lot of these preparations are artificial. I'm not against using them, but using them sparingly.

The best bet for the geriatric crowd would be a well balanced diet of a variety of food, as natural as possible to get the essential vitamins and minerals. Seeds, grains, vegetables and upturned sod for those hard to get micronutients.

Treesa

[fred130]

Treesa,
Go with what you feel comfortable doing. There is still research going on regarding bird nutrition so we don't know everything there is to know. You are as correct as anyone else.

[This message has been edited by fred130 (edited May 05, 2004).]

[dano7]

I agree with points that have been made so far:

* all of our bodies decrease in metabolic efficiency with age and calcium is one such case. Your theory about the Gluconate form makes sense.
* though great progress has been made in this field in the last ten years, it is still the early days of study as Fred notes.

Advances in hunman nutrition often spin off to avian applications - sometimes specifically and sometimes in principal. Pigeons have similar omnivorous requirements as humans, much more so than dogs or cats.

The best diet that I can find is a CRON diet (Calory Reduced Optimal Nutrition). Birdy mentioned this yesterday: over feeding is the biggest problem and that goes for birds and humans. With age this must be watched even more closely. This point is in harmony with using less protein for old birds as Fred mentioned.

And I agree that special nutrients become more important but they need to be made from clean, fresh, food based sources, and they need to obtained without a high heat process which destroys many nutrients. Perhaps Fred was expressing something like this when he cautioned about "artificial preparations". Since the ageing process involves oxidation (rust never sleeps as Neil Young said) which degrade cellular activity and reproduction, food supplements that provide anti-oxidants will be benificial to stemming the effects of ageing. I don't know of any bird vitamins that make the the above standard (so my birds have to take mine).

Exercize is equally important - use it or lose it is being proved in study after study for both the body and mental processes. Unless you fly your birds they have a mere fraction of the activity of a bird in the wild. Older birds must be excercized in some way.

Regarding the CRON diet briely, the sea change has come for humans with the recognition of the obesity/diabetes epidemic (grain junkies in birds). Simple carbohydrates (banana, potato, bread, etc.) = sugar = insulin resistance, resulting in diabetes, heart disease, cancer, etc. The CRON diet minimizes all forms of "sugar" carbs in favor of vegetable carbs, adds an appropriate fat profile, and adequate protien.

Since the pigeon is not considered a meat eater, fanciers sometimes neglect protein needs which are substantially covered by peas and othere seeds, but pigeons in the wild eat bugs at certain times just as hummingbirds do.

I think at this point we know the basics of a good diet but I don't think we can quantify it or know how to adjust for all conditions. When Gray-cheeked parakeets are found congregating on the banks of the Manu River at the "Coolpa de Guacamayas" - the lick of the Macaws, they can be seen eating the mineral rich soil. I feed my birds Homeostatic Soil Organisms but is it the same?

[Trees Gray]

Thanks for sharing, Dano.

I'm still struggling with a meat source of diet for my domestic flock, that won't give them parasites....

Treesa

[dano7]

Treesa, I'm trying the Science Diet puppy original touted by JC Gregg for this requirement. This is not a product of the highest standards, but it is still well crafted by normal standards. Besides being good for babies, it is a clean source of meat and chicken. For my home birds and wilders I crunch up a few into the seed - maybe just 5 pieces for your 30 birds. What do you think?

[birdy]

Hi Dano,

Thanks for a great post. I did not know anything about the CRON diet and after a bit of googling find it very fascinating.

Nor did I know ferals ate insects and wonder how much of their diet it makes up. I'm a bit gun shy about feeding animal protein to my pigeons simply b/c of mad cow - it just seems un-natural to me but I suspect I'm over-reacting.

I read where the roman army conquered the world on a veggie diet...

Kind regards,

birdy

[fred130]

Treesa,
Could you expand a bit on what you said about the birds getting parasites from meat? Is it that the meat attracts parasites or are they originally in the meat?

[dano7]

The meat industry is a horror story I'd rather not get into here. Safe to say if you don't get meat from a ranch that features range fed cows, you have to assume there are bacteria in that meat. The only good meat is from grass fed cows. Since a vast majority of beef is not made this way it is best to assume the worst.

[Christina Coughlin]

Sorry, I didn't know it got moved over here - a little non observant on my part

If you are going to feed dog food as a protein source my vet suggested using INNOVA dog food. My Rottweiler had a severe reaction to Rymadyal after it was given to him for pain after the neuter and we switched and took Barney to our "bird vet" who we have know for years and he changed the diet to this INNOVA and it is great!http://www.naturapet.com

He had a complete recovery minus the speen removal and the loss of the left lobe of his liver and turned out more healthy the our other dogs, go figure! I was also told for chickens in cold weather to feed them dry dog food soaked in hot water as a treat and to warm them up. I have not done it yet since Innova is pricey (about $50 for 32 lbs. with two Rotties and a German shephard) but I would do it.

For calcium I was given Calcium Carbonate in liquid and I give it to them strait in the beack twice a day if they need it. Went over that one too of the right calcium to give. Calcium Carbonate is the best if you need fast results, example thin shelled eggs, rickets in chicks, that kinda thing and it does the job well thats for sure!

I too have "meat" issues! I haven't eaten red meat for 4 years now and don't like feeding it to my animals either. Would like to go Vegan! My dad and brother would freak out though so I will have to wait a little while for that one, though I don't drink milk either since I am lactose intolerant.

[Trees Gray]

Fred,

When pigeons forage for meat in the wild, they can get parasites (worms) from eating snails and bugs.

I wasn't thinking along cow meat source. That is something I really don't want to use for my pigeons, as a meat source of protein. I myself, don't particularly care for red meat, especially if it's not "range fed."

Christina,

There are all natural dog and cat foods out there and that is the best bet for your pet.

Liquid calcium is the best for hens with very low calcium reserves with the leg paralysis also!

Treesa

[TerriB]

So when my birds fling the wheat and corn (both high carbohydrate) and just want to eat peas (protein) and safflower (fat), are they approximating an Atkins diet?

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Terri B