Preventative measures for the ferals

[Whitefeather]

Friday I caught another sick pigeon. Nancy was out of town so I took it to her replacement. She stated the pigeon had canker.
This morning (Sunday) I wend out to feed the big guys and almost stepped on another dead pigeon that had found it's way to my back door.
I caught another this afternoon. This one doesn't seem as bad as the others, however, it was unable to pick up seed from my patio & didn't even care that I was cleaning the patio. It kept looking into the animal carrier, that I now have on hand, apparently wanting the seed inside. I opened the door and when he finally found his way to the door he walked right in. That really isn't normal for a feral is it? I think it's time to lace the bird baths with some bleach (Tori suggested that) and perhaps some tums (I believe someone mentioned that for calcium) I realize these are ferals, but if I have a preventative measures thing going on wouldn't that help? Maybe?
And yes... I did read the posts re: a visit to the vet. nancy has the 3 living birds & I have emailed her about that. If there is something I can do around the yard, anything, I will get it done. We are getting close to a doz. birds in less than 4 weeks. If this plan sounds OK, please let me know. Or if you have any other suggestions I am ready to hear them. Thanks, Cindy

[This message has been edited by Whitefeather (edited September 29, 2002).]

[TAWhatley]

Hi Cindy,

I'm sure sorry you are continuing to find deceased and sick birds.

I think the bleach in the bird water is a good idea .. at least it couldn't hurt anything by giving it a try.

As to the Tums for calcium, it doesn't seem that lack of calcium is a specific problem, but putting out a container or two of pigeon grit or oyster shell grit would be a good idea. They would not only get the calcium boost but also additional minerals they need as well as the grit to help grind up their food.

I guess another thought would be to order some of the water soluble medications from a pigeon supply house and "dose" them through the drinking water. That would negate using the bleach, however .. can't do both at the same time. Perhaps alternating a day of bleach water with a day of medicine water would work. Giving meds in the drinking water is haphazard as you have no way of knowing if any given bird is getting enough to do any good, but here again, it might not hurt to try. If we knew for sure what the problem is we could come up with a better plan of attack.

Hopefully someone else will be along shortly with some good ideas for you.

I do know that what you are already doing (providing the birds with clean, fresh water, good food, and a clean environment to spend time in) will help.

Terry Whatley

[raynjudy]

Plain, generic, chlorine bleach at 1 tsp per gallon of tap water has been shown to reduce the spread salmonellosis (paratyphoid) and some other organisms in lofts. This amount of plain bleach safely acidifies the water--and the salmonella organisms don't like that! Bleach can also help to arrest mild yeast infections in their early stages.

So, yes! That would help!

The Tums are a stop-gap measure for readily available calcium (Rolaids would be okay too), and are acceptable to treat a suspected deficiency. Judy likes to use the fruit flavored ones. Better still is Calcionate Syrup. And of course, proper grit should provide needed calcium.

Truthfully, I don't know what effect bleach would have on calcium in the water--it's a powerful oxidizer.

In extremely hot climates, 2 tsp of bleach per gallon is recommended.

Do not use medications or vitamins in bleach treated water. Chlorine can combine with compounds in the medication to make poisons; and it's oxidization effect destroys some vitamins, such as C.

Apple Cider vinegar at 1/4 cup per gallon of water is an alternative--one that we use in the home. While it acidifies the water slightly, and offers that benefit, it is not a disinfectant in the sense that plain bleach is, nor is it an oxidizer.

Outdoors, I'd go with bleach. Indoors--vinegar.

--Ray

PS. You are most kind to care as you do!

[raynjudy]

Hi, Terry!

--Ray

[raynjudy]

Forgive me Whitefeather, but could you quickly summarize what therapies you and Nancy have tried and what the results have been?

Baytril? Toxiban? Flagyl?, etc?

Thanks!

--Ray

PS. What of the pigeon that walked into the carrier?

[fred2344]

Everything from this end is guesswork but I'm wondering if the bird that would not pick up seed, could not pick up seed. Is it possible there is an epidemic of canker going through this flock?
When you have a chance to pick up a pigeon again, would you check the mouth and throat?
If you still have the bird that walked into the carrier, could you also check that one?
The bird that walked into the carrier is ill from something. It's looking for a safe place.

[Whitefeather]

Hi Terry & Ray.
Thank you for responding so quickly.
My plan of action will be to start with the bleach.

Ray, I haven't done any of the treatments as I have never been trained, however, Nancy first began with the an injection of Ringers.
Second: I believe she said she was going to give them Baytril.
Third: She tube fed them. Then observed them. I have taken a total of three pigeons to her.
She is quite vague about what she is doing. I email her asking how they are doing and she just says, "The same, no real improvements, but they are eating on their own" Tomorrow I will be taking yet another one to her and I am going to ck. about taking one of these fellas to her vet. She was out of town this week end and left a number of a lady to use if I needed any help (see Fred's canker thread). After reading Mary & Fred's reply I really feel bad about that one.
Sorry, I didn't understand your PS question about the pigeon walking into the carrier.
I was explaining that this afternoon I was cleaning my patio and a lone pigeon was walking about not paying any attention to me. I put a bit of seed on the patio and he couldn't pick any up. He was just scraping his beak in the patio. He was however, looking into the animal carrier that I keep on the patio, apparently wanting some of the seed inside. I opened the door and he wandered around seemingly looking for the entrance. When he found it he just walked inside. I though that was unusual for a 'well' pigeon to do. Perhaps he isn't feral. But I would still like Nancy to take a look. Cindy
oops... I was reading Fred's canker thread and I addressed my reply to you, Ray. I have no idea why I did that. Sorry to Fred. Must be stress.


[This message has been edited by Whitefeather (edited September 29, 2002).]

[Whitefeather]

Hi Fred, Well... The way things are going I won't have any problem finding another sick pigeon. Sorry to say.
The three I have taken to Nancy did not appear to have canker, however, the one I took to that woman on Friday did have canker. She was the one that tried to take it out of the little guys mouth. Yes, I do still have the one that walked into the cage & yes I will check it's mouth. Thanks again to everyone for putting up with my repetitious threads. Cindy

[cyro51]

Hi Cindy

Not being able to pick up seed is another symptom of PMV. One of my birds (Blackie) came to my attention because she was oblivious to people, pecking at the pavement but not picking up seed. She was so hungry that when I put her is my shopping bag she immediately started pecking desperately at the spilt seed in the bottom.

Offer her seed in a deep dish, so that she doesn't need any skill to pick it up...that will show whether she can do it.

I think, but am not sure, that you can treat the water with canker medicine for one day...withhold the bleach on that day.


Cynthia

[Whitefeather]

Good Morning Cynthia,
Unfortunately, I am becoming all to familiar with PMV symptoms.
Yes, I did put seed in a dish. Just checked on her and she is about the same. I will get her to Nancy this AM.
The little guy I caught Friday walked right into my shed (I was mowing the lawn & had the door open) so I was able to to him before he realized what he was doing.
I was keeping my eye on him so he wasn't in there long enough to get hurt & he was easy to catch as I don't have much stuff in there. When I checked him out I could smell a foul odor. My first clue was canker. Sure enough he did have it.
Well, my fine feathered friends are waiting for their morning snack. Will post on the disposition of this little pij later. Cindy

[Whitefeather]

Good Morning Fred,
I do not see any visible signs of canker in the little pij that walked into the carrier.
Cindy

[raynjudy]

With all respect intended, since Nancy is not too communicative, a series of unambiguous questions will have to be asked. Good intentions aside, sitting on information doesn't help matters. We need to know treatments and durations and results with reference to times. Otherwise we're swimming. Do what you can...

Very probably, "Silver Bullet" time! If not, what is the alternative?

--Ray

[This message has been edited by raynjudy (edited September 30, 2002).]

[Whitefeather]

Hi Ray,
I agree with you. I spoke with Nancy today, she said she is giving the birds Baytril, keeping them hydrated & quite, at first tube feeding (however, the three are now eating on their own). She did say (and I believe you mentioned it as well) taking in samples for testing can be very costly & they may not even have the same illnesses. If this is a CNS disorder, perhaps their symptoms will remain for their duration and they will make wonderful 'pets'.
I know I have been carrying on about what is causing this. However, even if we find out, I am not working with a group of pigeons confined to a loft or aviary, being able to isolate each sick bird, we are talking about 30-40+ ferals here that visit every day. There is obviously no way to isolate each & everyone of them. Correct me if I am wrong, but we are facing a 'no win' situation until they finally get so sick they end up on my lawn & from there we can treat them. I will continue with the suggested 'preventative measures' and pray that helps. I really don't need to take up anymore space on this topic, so, if you would Ray, please email me your "Silver Bullet" recipe and I will gladly pass it on to Nancy.
I appreciate the input and support you all have given me. Cindy

[raynjudy]

You're absolutely right about the situation at hand with the feral flock.

But I'm still fuzzy on what, if anything, has worked.

Judy & I pretty much default to Fred's "Silver Bullet" list.

Check your e-mail...

--Ray

[Wild Dove]

I'm so sorry to hear of your pigeons' plight, and I thank you from the bottom of my heart for doing all that you can for them.

Just a little note to add...
Canker, (or Trichonomiasis) is an "opportunistic" disease. Most pigeons carry it, and live with it, showing no symptoms until stress, illness, or injury causes it to rear its ugly head, (or protozoa in this case).
I am just guessing that some of the ill pigeons you are picking up are exhibiting signs of canker because they are weakened by something else, (the first stages of your "mystery disease" perhaps). I am concerned that the pigeons with canker should not only be treated for the canker, (Metronidazole is one medication used), but treated with a course of Baytril as well. I suppose the reverse wouldn't be a bad idea either...the pigeons being treated with Baytril should also be treated for canker. It might be something worth mentioning to Nancy.
Above all, I am so thankful that you are there to keep an eye on this situation.
Wild Dove