Rollers vrs. Tumblers

[indie backroll]

This post is actually for K.D. Spurling...
K.D. You seem to have a lot of knowledge about pigeons and I have a question for you. I have a bunch of Pensom rollers, a pair of short faced tumblers (unsure of exact breed) and a bronze english tumbler (medium faced?) and was wondering what is the main difference between a roller and a tumbler? I was told that the difference is in performance, rollers do backflips and tumblers do front flips. Is this the main difference? I also read that rollers came to be from breeding with different types of Tumblers. Is this correct? I am eager to find this out for my own curiosity, and thank you K.D. for sharing your knowledge with the rest of us so graciously. Its good to have such a great administrator-host (Carl-bigbird) and a kind and generous person involved with this great site (turmani-K.D. Spurling).

[DaveD]

I have the book by William H. Pensom, and in it he says that the only real diffrence is that rollers spin for a greater distance. Great book, if you don't have it, lots of great info. Thanks, Dave .

------------------
David and Kellie Dittmaier
Haven's Loft
www.haven-lofts.cityslide.com

[indie backroll]

Yes.. I have his book true spinning rollers and that is actually why I ask because my rollers look so much different than my tumblers and I was wondering about it. It is so fasinating to me that tumblers are ancestors of the roller, with such a different look and all. Thanks for the reply Dave. I have one more question for anyone who would like to reply: Are there such things as short faced rollers? Or medium faced rollers? I'm thinking of breeding a Pensom roller with a short faced tumbler, hopping for the Short Faced Pensom Roller - "The Martinez Roller" maybe creating my own breed. Would the short face be a recessive gene or a dominant gene to be past on to the squab? Thanks Again..
~Brian

[turmani]

Brian & Dave,

Pensom's book "The Birmingham Roller" carries a good description of the difference between Tumblers and Birmingham Rollers (which Dave cited) as it was known to Bill Pensom in his time and in the locales where he resides (the English Midlands and Canoga Park, CA). Pensom had been gone a few years by time I came around, but I did study all of his writings and I also became closely associated to close friends of his; Chan Grover and the late O.D. Harris to name just two of them. Overall, Pensom's writings founded the basis of most of my earliest study into the Tumbler/Highflier family. In fact, as I write this, sitting next to me are original copies of old American Pigeon Journal's that belonged to the man personally with his name and mailing address still stamped into them. I would say that overall, Pensom's knowledge and writings reflected the world that was around him; pre-WW2 Birmingham and post WW2 America. Most of his knowledge of Tumblers and Rollers was exceedingly "Western" and it must have been very distressing for him to know that locked away behind the Iron Curtain was a vast multitude of Tumbler breeds which he was largely never able to see, let alone study. Even still, his knowledge and devotion to the Birmingham Roller will likely never be equaled no matter how many modern fanciers dwell in wishful thinking that they've passed him.

His description of the difference between Tumblers and Rollers is based strictly on what he knew here and in Britain. All things considered, it was an adequate description at the time and places in which Pensom lived and he really was a brilliant writer of some exceedingly great ability, especially considering his education that lasted only into the 8th grade (most of which was spent skipping school to see kits of pigeons anyway!).

BUT - today his description of this difference is no longer truly correct. Pensom once wrote: "Tumblers are legion in numbers", but I will bet that the existence of over 660+ diverse breeds scattered worldwide would have truly floored him and that he would have never imagined it. 660 odd is my last count and I can tell you that since the count a few more dozen have came to light. My estimate is that the number probaly really exceeds 750 breeds now and naturally, the variation in type, structure, flight style and performance varies immensely.

For simplicity sakes, I would say that the difference between a roller performing pigeon and a tumbler performing pigeon is that the Roller (irregardless of breed and there are dozens!) executes more individual somersaults within a shorter space than a true Tumbler. In otherwords, they perform more somersaults and faster somersaults than so Tumblers do, quite irregardless of which direction the pigeon rotates (backwards, sideways or even frontwards) or which way the pigeon actually rolls (downwards, upwards, in place, horizontally or diagonally). Another good measure is the rapidity of each particular somersault or revolution
and contrary to common thought, the fastest revolving pigeons will not neccessarily drop the furthest or even descend the fastest. Consequently, if you are flying a mature pigeon and you can count each somersault, it's technically a tumbler. Still keep in mind; the only real difference between MOST Tumblers and Rollers is breeding. In general, it all comes from the same basic genetic code. Consequently, some Tumbler breeds will produce rollers and some Roller breeds will produce Tumblers. This is due largely upon the individual bird's genetic resistance to the trait and it is also heavily influenced by enviornmental issues; intake of feed and water to name the two primary ones. One thing to keep in mind is that Tumbler & Roller flying is entirely different from that of other breeds and the name of the game is to achieve a rather delicate (and often dangerous) balancing act in relatiely low condition. Contrary to popular thought, the best results will come when the pigeons are in low condition (brought about by amount of feed) and also on a fairly limited amount of water intake. Basically, this lower condition induces the performance and excess water can also restrict the performance. Taken to over extremes (too little feed and water), even the most mundane tumblers can become increasingly dangerous performers and taken to the other extreme (excess feed & excess water) even the most severely dangerous rollers can become as bad as Tipplers and do next to nothing.

As to the origin of the Birmingham Roller, many assume the bird was created from a hodge podge of breeds, but the truth of the matter is that the breed's earliest origin is relatively well documented. In truth, only two breeds were involved: the Dutch Roller and the Old English Wire Legged Tumbler. Of these two, the Dutch breed was the actual Roller performer, while the Wire Leg contributed its smaller size and strong flying and tight kitting abilities. This is documented right down to the first import of Dutch Rollers to England at the turn of the 18th century DIRECTLY into Birmingham. We know the exact numbers of imports, their colors and the reason for the breed cross. Some writers (even Pensom) assume the Oriental Roller was involved, but the breed did not reach England until 50 years after the Birmingham breed was known.

TO BE CONTINUED ....

------------------

[turmani]

PART #2

As to the variation between your Birminghams and your unknown SF breed, the thing to keep in mind is that Birminghams and Shortface Tumblers represent two opposite ends of the Tumbler family. There are two basic families of SF Tumblers worldwide. The best known is the Vienna-Prague-Budapest group. These include the Budapest SF, the Vienna SF and the Prague SF as the best known three, but it also includes the Stettin SF, the Breslau SF (Wroclawski), the Polish SF (Polski Szek), the Bratislava SF and a whole range of others largely from Central Europe. In the first place, these breeds all originate through a common stem. It was previously believed that they arose simply through the cultivation of local flying breeds from the general surroundings of Vienna, Budapest and Prague and created by selecting for pigeons with shorter beaks.Old legends stated that the original birds were introduced from Turkish Ottomann. However, recently, a "new" breed came to light in Turkey in the form of the Istanbul Bango which is technically a race of Owl. However, one branch of the Bango family are extremely simliar to Self marked Budapest SF and it now seems very likely that the Bango is in fact the original source of this group of breeds and that the Medium Faced breeds may have actually come second and not first. Altho Owls may seem a world away from flying breeds, they are actually the closest relations Tumblers/Highfliers have outside of their family and are in reality as a whole Diving breeds in the Mid East and southern Europe. Either way, you realize that this is very far away from the Birmingham Roller and was going on hundreds of years before Birminghams even existed. In addittion, the Budapest - Vienna - Prague group are Highflirrs anyway and not Tumblers. Basically the terminology of Tumbler is often used incorrectly after many German researchers seemed to foul some name translations up. In otherwords, in many German texts, the name "Tumbler" is often misapplied to many Highfliers and you can understand how this can screw things up. The second main group of SF breeds are the East European breeds, which also includes a few Westernized SF breeds like Berliner SF, Ancients, Reinaugens, Novi Sad SF, etc. all of which have a different origin from the Vienna-Budapest-Prague group and are true tumblers historically (most have become show breeds over the last cenrury).
Even here, despite being true Tumblers, the apple that is the Birmingham Roller fell from the other side of the tree. In otherwords, even in this circumstance, their relation to Birminghams exceeds over a 1000 year gap.
So imagine what a fancier can accomplish in 50 years with a breed and then multiply that by 20.

As to SF Rolling breeds, they do of course exist, but not in the same sense as you may think. As to the beak structure itself, the Shortface is a Partial Dominant. The actual length of the beak however is controlled through selection of shorter and shorter beaks. Still, why shoot so low as just putting a short beak on a Birmingham Roller when you can meld any feature imaginable onto a single pigeon given the stock and time? So for example, for the last five years I've been developing a breed (this will be the third pigeon breed) which apart from being a flying performing tumbler features a shell crest, beak crest, eye crests, neck frill, grouse legs, hanging wings and an oversized tail. When complete, it should be the most extreme member of the Tumbler family so far as structure. Right now, I largely have a hodge podge but am not too trerribly far off. Basically the sky is the limit and there are still lots of genetic combinations which are yet to have been made.

Hope that helps.

K.D. Spurling
russiastation@netscape.net
http://members.tripod.com/ultrarare/

------------------

[indie backroll]

First off I want to make a correction to my post yesterday: When I got home last night I was thumbing through my books and realized that it wasnt William Pensom that wrotte the True Spinning Rollers series, it was David Kowalski he went in depth about William Pensom and so I got a bit confused .
K.D. you are a god! I thank you very much for all of your insight, and hope that someday I may become as knowledgable on pigeons as you. As for the SF roller. Are those Birminghams? The Sf Tumbler that I have are a small breed ( smaller than my Birminghams) with a large chest that carries in front there heads are set back so it looks like they are sticking their chest out with huge eyes. Short lttle legs and they carry their very short wings under their tails. I think it would be a nice cross with a birmingham (Pensom). Am I correct by calling them "Pensom" or are they considered "Birminghams" also? The person I got them from called them Pensom Rollers and I dont want to look like too much of a fool. How different are Pensoms from standard Birminghams?
~Brian

[turmani]

Brian,

Pensom Rollers are Birminghams and Bill Pensom was originally from Harbourne, a country suburb of Birmingham at that time.

Yeah, I thought you meant Dave K.'s book. Overall, I like his book, but he tries to get too scientific with his keel calculators and what not and often loses his readers.

Among the newer books, the one I like is the late Cornell Norwood's book, even tho Cornell had some intense critics. If you don't have it, you should check out Glenn Eason's site. Mine was a freebie for some articles I sent Glenn, but its well worth the price he charges and is especially suited for someone just starting out. Well written, concise and starts at the beginning describing just what a Birmingham is and what it does. I'd also reccommend the article collection on Rollers that I edited that's available on CD-Rom.

About SF Rollers, no they're not Birminghams. One of the best semi SF rolling breeds is undoubtedly the Rakovnik (Rakovnicky kotrlak) from Bohemia, Czech Republic. They were promoted here as very deep rollers, but that's a fault. They're technically horizontal rollers, meaning that they should roll into the back of the kit or spin in place. Check on my site for pics. Rakovniks are closely related to Komorners (which also used to be a Horizontal Roller before the show breeders trashed them, as were Helmets). Rakovniks are also closely allied to Koros, Kiskenfelegyhaza, Szolnoks and others, all of which are natives to the old Austro-Hungarian Empire. This entire family traced back to the Ottomann Turkish introduction of Bursa Rollers in the 14th Century and these breeds are much older than the Birmingham.

MORE LATER ...

------------------

[indie backroll]

I know what you mean about him getting so scientific it was kinda hard to read the first time through although I did enjoy the book and learned alot from it, I will check outCornells book also Glenn Easons site. You know, Your name sounds very familiar to me, I beleive that I have seen it somewhere or heard it somewhere....Hmm. I'm not sure of where though, Have you written a book? And how would I get my hands on your CD Rom?
Many thanks for the great insight into these fun birds. I will more than likely be calling on you for some future advise.. If you would be so kind.
How could we here at Pigeons.com not use your resources?
Thanks again
~Brian

[turmani]

Brian,

Actually I've written 8 books on pigeons since 1994 and edited several others. That's not including 500+ articles, varying columns in magazines, etc.

As to the Roller CD, it is available directly through me for $15 w/ shipping, but not for long as I am relocating to the UK in the near future and hence it won't be available after that unless someone is interested in marketing it inside the United States.

For shipping info you can mail me at:

russiastation@netscape.net

------------------

[bigbird]

Hey K.D.
What's this about you moving to the UK? What will you be doing there, how long to you plan to stay and what will you do with your pigeons? Do you plan to become a foreigner?
Regarding thoes pigeon books you have written, could you give us a summery of thoes in print and the cost?
Regards,
Carl

[turmani]

Carl,

Yes, its true. I'm moving to Scotland for the next 3-5 years. Part of it is research oriented and I'll be a few hours away from old pigeon breeding centers like Birmingham for one and it's nothing to go to the Netherlands, Belgium, Germany, etc. for a research weekend regularly. As far as the birds, my core studs (about 20 birds in 3 breeds) are already arranged to be exported over shortly after I arrive there. Overall, it's going to be in a much better research position.

As to the books, the majority had small print runs and are out of print. The big seller was "The North American Roller Pigeon"
(5000+ copies), but some of the others were aimed at obscure breeds and had limited print runs of about 100 copies each which sold out in a matter of days.

The next release is due out by January and is entitled "Rare Flying Pigeons". Right now the printing is being arranged in English and it may go into German by spring.
The English edition should be available on Amazon.com in a few months.

Beyond that, my next work "The Complete Encyclopedia of Tumbling and Highflying Pigeons" should be out by 2003 and will run about 1500 pages w/ color photos of about 650+ breeds. I'll attach a sample following this for a sneak peak.

Otherwise, I also released the three info. disks, which are strictly editing jobs of documents. They've reviewed well, but I haven't went out there and really pushed them that hard and as I said, they won't be available for much longer unless someone wants to take them over here in the states.

K.

------------------

[bigbird]

KD
Sounds like a great opportunity. I hope you will continue stay with us via Pigeon Talk and e-mail.
When are you actually leaving?
Will you be attending the NPA Nationals in January in Tacoma Wash?
Regards,
Carl

[turmani]

Carl,

I'll be staying around for 2-3 more months, but will still be online over there so I can stick around.

As far as the National, I was originally planning on it, but we've got a dog show the same weekend and we are more intent on getting one of our bitches finished since she only needs a major (she's got well over the points, but needs the major!). Consequently, I'll be showing the dog instead of pigeons.

My last Pigeon Show in the states was in Central Point, OR on Nov. 10th. Did well enough to satisfy most people, but not enough to satisfy me! 6 HS's out of 13 birds
(almost 50% HS's when the projected average is only 6 birds out of 100), plus Champion Flying Rare and Reserve Flying Rare. A hen I sold 2 years ago to a friend also took Best Sporting for the third year in a row. Unfortunately, I'm not a very graceful winner! About 4 years ago I was showing in Northern California where John Heppner was judging and I pretty much whomped everyone. We got Champ & Reserve Rare, Champ & Res. Flying Rare, Champ & Res. AOV Rare and even Champion Sporting and Champion Fancy. Then we got Best In Show too boot, but I was really dissatisfied because I didn't get Reserve In Show too!

Even tho I wasn't too satisfied with my results on the 10th, I did manage to end my show career on my Rzhev with the right to say that I bred the breed for 11 years in the United States and was never beaten in that breed over that period. That's something at least, but watch me go to Europe and some Scotsman will stomp me the first time out!!!

------------------

[DoveLove]

This is for K.D. Well no sooner did I post my first topic on parlor tumblers when I found all of your helpful info re: tumblers vs. parlors. However, you kept referring to the "flying" style of the birds. I have birds which were described as parlor tumblers and they literally do not fly at all except to reach a perch about 4 ft high. They walk around and they turn backflips only (not frontwards ever). I understand rollers fly like other birds then flip in the air during their flight. Is this correct? and when you refer to tumblers, are they basically flightless like my pigeons? Please advise