Sick Chick!!

[DPyra]

My first post in the emergency care section. I was hoping to get through the rearing stage and get this poor little fellow eating on it's own before announcing it's arrival into the world, but we've run into a hitch. Someone please tell me I'm doing the right thing, and if not, please tell me what I need to do to get this little bugger past weaning. I'm hoping I didn't wait too long. Here is the story.
Aries stopped gaining weight about three days ago, and the parent birds stopped energetically feeding Aries at about the same time. I wittnessed Daddy feeding Aries Friday morning and thought baby was just doing the slight weight loss during weaning thing (baby was picking at food, just not really eating it) - until I picked him up to say goodbye before leaving for work. Aries' little keel felt like my paring knife! I was shocked that I hadn't noticed this sooner, but thought nature knew what it was doing. At lunch I made the decision to go get him and start hand feeding him. I've been doing so since Friday and Aries does not want to eat (it swallows whatever I get into it's mouth, but does not open or show any interest in food). Aries has since developed what appears to be an eye infection. This morning I managed to get Aries' mouth open wide enough for long enough to get a good look (not an easy thing!). I saw a white patch at the inside corner on the side of the swollen watery eye. I don't see what has been described as canker, but I've never seen canker so I'm not ruling it out. I'm calling a vet on Monday to get Aries seen. Aries just wants to sleep. No interest in food or surroundings. It is regaining weight from the forcefeeding I am subjecting it to. I open it's mouth and squeeze baby bird formula (from the pet store - not pigeon food) onto it's tongue and it swallows. It's a long tedious process, and I'm trying to do it atleast three times a day. Should I do this more often, even though the crop is not empty? I have Aries in a box with a lamp for sick birds over it. Aries doesn't sit fluffed when under the lamp. Here are as many particulars as I can think of for helping diagnose the problem:

- Baby bird 4 weeks old today
- first noticed severe weight loss 4/23
- first noticed swelling around eye morning of 4/24
- droppings solid is very dark, liquid is mustard yellow (no clear or white at all)
- frequency of droppings - 2 or 3 on Friday, increasing greatly since handfeeding but still looking the same
- no feather loss (still growing actually)
- infected eye swollen under eye and watery,
bird keeps eye closed
- I can get about 6 cc's of baby food into Aries before it begins severe resistance (handfeeding this little bugger is not easy to begin with)
- baby has gotten noticeably weaker than usual (loses balance easily) but can walk and can perch on my shoulder while I walk carefully, this is inspite of the noticed regaining of weight and the baby is still way too light

Any advice and or help is greatly appreciated, and I will keep all updated as to Aries' condition. I am (the usual) limited in resources and contacts concerning pigeons. Pet stores offer all I could ask for if I'm caring for a parrot (is there anything in that department that I could use?). Thanks in advance for all your help.

Debbie

[dano7]

Hi Debbie

Aries is definitely in trouble. When you call the vet tomorrow, tell them it is an emergency TODAY, NOW and not a situatiion where an appointment for Thursday is OK.

Diagnosis at home would be tricky-E. coli, one eyed cold, paratyphoid, canker-it's not likely solved without diagnostics. If Aries is failing badly you might have to try a pet store antibiotic, but you should not do this if Aries is stable and the vet can see him on Monday. If you use pet store tetracycline the vet may not be able to tell what's what and the quality and strength of pet store antibiotics is not up to snuff. Better to have a supply for the future from Foys, Jedds, Siegels, or Global Pigeon Supplies.

Aries is way undernourished and this might be the biggest problem, however, I would feed him a very liquidy meal and see how he responds--if he gets stronger then more food, if he doesn't then don't increase. Though he needs more like 120 cc's/day than the 20 cc's he is getting, he may need to fast and fight the infection. Definitely keep him hydrated--let's see what the others say. At least he is processing the food but the yellowy color in the droppings may be symptomatic.

[Feefo]

I have to agree with Dano, he needs antibiotics, and the right ones, pretty urgently. You will also have to find out whether the parents could have caught whatever it is and take quick action to protect them, too.

Cynthia

[Trees Gray]

You could put a drop of coillodal silver in the eye, as that will help.

If you are using the baby bird formula add the probiotics, to help with digestion. Add the probiotics until it is determined which antibiotic you will be using. If you are spoon feeding small seeds, add probiotic to the water.

I have 3 young baby pigeons that are about 25 days old. I watch them carefully as they are picking up seeds, but it is still practice.

I use a small spoon (a baby spoon)and scoop seeds on it, and put them slowly down their throats. At this age they were getting mostly seeds from parents
anyway, so it is an appropriate diet, and
the poop looks good. Just thought, you could try this if Aries is not throwing up, since he is 4 weeks.

Treesa

[DPyra]

Bad news. Aries was alot sicker (as is common with birds) than it looked. Aries didn't make it through the night. Thank you for all your replies. The condition was not stable enough. I'm a bit in shock. The parent birds appear to be their usual hardy selves, so I'm going to go through a month or two taking eggs again and squinting really hard at them to make sure. And I'll be doing the hindsight thing looking for signs I missed. I'll also be contacting one of the companies Dano7 suggested for better feed and for obviously needed medical supplies to keep on hand. I was very poorly prepared for this. I thought starvation was the problem, not a symptom, or I would have called the vet Friday. I so wish I'd done that. Thank you, again.

[Trees Gray]

Hello Debbie,

I am so sorry to hear about Aries. It is a very hard time to go thru, I know that for myself.

With pigeos it is hard, at the first sign you got to nip it in the bud, because visual signs don't show up quick enough sometimes to make the daignoses.

Are Aries parents isolated from any other pigens you own? You should have Aries parents examined. It is typical for Salmonella carriers to exhibit no signs of the disease themselves, they can be carriers, and give it to their offspring.

I would get the birds diagnosed and on a regimen of anitbiotics the avian vet prescribes. You might want to get the rest of the birds examined as well, if there are more.

Again, I'm so sorry to hear about this, my heart goes out to you.

I usually do a preventine treatment for canker, coccidioses and worms before breeding. Globals multi-mix is quick and easy to use.


Treesa

[dano7]

really sorry Debbie. When I lose a bird a little of me dies with them.

We always need to learn what we can from these terrible situations, so we may be smart enough to save the next one - and there will be a next one. Treesa covered the issues you can check in your birds.

I want to share something that made me very proactive and I don't mean to lecture you in particular -- it's worth noting for all of us. Dr Speer says that we need to be very aware of small signs of change in our birds because a sick bird "was most likely trying desperately to hide the signs of illness and succeeding in the eyes of the owner." Unlike dogs and humans who don't have much reason to hide illness symptoms, birds are a prey animal and "If you're a prey animal, showing signs of illness is sure to capture the keen-eyed attention of something with big teeth and a healthy appetite." Since pigeons are either wild or only a few generations from wild, "their survival instincts can't be rewired just because they are living in cozy homes with humans....Birds will do anything to hide their illness. They can't help it - such secrecy has been a key survival skill for eons, and we humans can't change it. This 'prey factor' is one of the reasons preventive care is so important for birds. Too often when a bird finally seems sick to the owner, she is very ill -- so much so that she can't hide it anymore, and it's going to be a hard, expensive fight to save her, if she can be saved at all"

[DPyra]

Thank you, Dano7, and I don't mind the lecture. I already know this so I'm beating myself up a bit over not acting sooner. I will have to get stuff off the internet because no one supplies what I need locally.

And thank you, Treesa, for your advice as well. I thought I could do this pigeon keeping thing without the stuff the petstores don't carry. I've been proven wrong three times now, and this was the worst. I only have the pair of pigeons, Sam and Torpedo. I don't want to lose them, and I want them to have more than I'm supplying them. And I want them to be able to hatch and raise a little one. I'm off to Global.

Thanks again.

[Trees Gray]

Hi Debbie,

We all have lesson that were learned with much difficulty, so don't beat yourself up over it, but take action!

Before you order, be sure to get the correct diagnoses from the vet. They will need more than a preventive dose of Globals Multi-Mix, if it is cocci.

Please do yourself a favor, and have the birds tested and checked out at your avian vet.

Thank you

Treesa

[DPyra]

But they were just at the vet. I had them there before Aries' egg was laid. They went through a week of medication for parasites, then almost three weeks later they had Aries' egg. Can cocci be contracted that fast indoors? They are housed in my back bedroom in a handmade, pine, 2 X 3 ft cage with a wire floor. What are the symptoms in an adult bird that I should be looking for? I ask because all seems normal. They are back to courting and choosing a nest site, and Sam's beginning another molt. He molts during the nest sitting period.

[dano7]

That was very conscientous of you to take them to the vet for the preventive care - you deserved better luck.

You said they were checked for parasites. Did they recieve a diagnostic for all of the following: E. coli, Coccidosis, canker, and Salmonellosis? When my babies failed early I ran a full course of antibiotics.

[Trees Gray]

Did you have them tested for cocci?

Your pigeons can be carriers but not suffer from the disease themselves, but their babies fall victim to it.

Treesa

[DPyra]

To be honest, I feel like a pioneer with this vet. It's like I'm the only person for miles that considers pigeons pet-worthy and actually has one. I'm not sure they were tested for much more than parasites, but I'll call the vet tomorrow and double-check that. It should be in their files. The vet keeps pushing parrot food on me for the pigeons. It made their droppings stink and become really loose so I just throw it away.

I'm also doing the hind-sight thing with the chick. I exposed Aries to alot more than it probably should have been exposed to, I think. As soon as it was able to walk, I took it out of the house. My neighbors were very interested in my new arrival and wanted to see Aries. And I didn't think anything of it since I was already handling the baby without ill effects (or so I thought). Could it have been me?

[dano7]

I've considered that since I live with my birds and touch their food, etc. but pigeons eat food everyday from peoples mouth so they, as a species, have a great immuno system and this may be one of their secrets of success. As Treesa mentioned, the adults are very likely carriers but not symptomatic of some bacteria that the chicks aren't ready to deal with, and since your vet may not be in the ballgame you just run a course of antibiotics and then be sure to go hard with probiotics afterward.

[Trees Gray]

We all question what we do when a tragedy strikes, its normal. You should not feel guilty about this. You did take your birds to the vet.

Sometimes I think we have too close contact too, with our birds. Since we have the pets, Skye and Sonic, they kiss us sometimes, or peck? I wondered about the germs...being in close contact with them.

Baby pigeons are all vulnerable, much more so then the full grown pigeon. Their immune systems are not fully up to par, they don't have all the gut bacteria yet, and their bodies can't handle any medicines until they are 6 months old. (Unless an emergency where they have to have it) They are babies, and their young lives should be all comfort, rest, play, and load up on the food and nutrition, so they can become strong pigeons, able to deal with circumstances, stress, and any disease that might come near. Just like any baby animal.

Treesa