Canker in Mourning Doves

[Starshooter]

It's call Metronidazole powder.

Is there something else that can be used that they will drink?

Thanks
Sandy

[feralpigeon]

You can use Ronidazole, but what I'm wondering that I couldn't see from the site is who is the manufacturer and what percent it is. Could you post this
Does the package mention mixing with seeds at all?
I'll get you a link for a Ronidazole product in a minute!
fp

[Pidgey]

Well, this seems to tie in with what your vet originally said--that the birds wouldn't willingly drink the regular stuff, which this is. I think it's likely that this is the same medication that you originally had, but that formulation was also treated with something (?sugar?) to make it more palatable, perhaps.

If you can read the label and get an actual drug concentration from the package, we might be able to figure out whether it's too strong.

Pidgey

[feralpigeon]

Here's one of the products that I keep on hand and the birds (pigeons) will
drink it:

http://www.jedds.com/ProductDetail.a...ProductID=3265

I think if you could put what you have on food you might have a better chance of having them ingest it. They may be able to find another source of water, but how many food sources do they have?

fp

[Starshooter]

This is whats on the Foy's website
Metronidazol Powder20% (Pg. 13)
A powder to be added to the drinking water for the treatment of Trichomoniasis(canker). 1 teaspoon per quart. 250 gram. Treat for 5 - 7 days.

Heres the link:
http://www.foyspigeonsupplies.com/ca...dazol%20Powder

Thanks
Sandy

[Pidgey]

This might take a day to process, by the way.

Pidgey

[feralpigeon]

Originally Posted by Starshooter

This is whats on the Foy's website
Metronidazol Powder20% (Pg. 13)
A powder to be added to the drinking water for the treatment of Trichomoniasis(canker). 1 teaspoon per quart. 250 gram. Treat for 5 - 7 days.

Heres the link:
http://www.foyspigeonsupplies.com/ca...dazol%20Powder

Thanks
Sandy

Is DAC the manufacturer of this product? Regardless, here's the way to administer w/food:

Weigh out a pound of seeds, and lightly oil them (as in to the shinyness of a new penny) in a large bowl, then gradually add in one teaspoon of the medication to the seeds, and mix thoroughly. Refridgerate what you don't put out for them to feed on. Give them this for five consecutive days.

fp

[Pidgey]

Well, I did an experiment--I just weighed a flat teaspoonful of a similar powderized drug (Dimetridazole) and it's 3,850 milligrams (3.85 grams) to the teaspoon. Assuming that it's the same, then 20% means that a mixed quart is going to have 770 milligrams of pure medicine. The question then becomes how much of the quart does each bird normally drink?

The typical dosing is 10 to 30 milligrams of pure medicine per 1 kilogram of bird, twice daily. There is also a once-a-day dosing but it's almost twice so the math is almost the same. Anyhow, a 100 gram dove would get from from 1 to 3 milligrams twice a day. Therefore, it should only drink 0.08 ounces, twice a day. That's saying that 770 milligrams divided by 2 milligrams (assuming the midrange dose for a 100 gram bird) equals 385 doses per quart.

Now, I might be tired and screwed something up--somebody else needs to review that and it'd be a good idea for someone who knows doves better than I do to extrapolate how much they normally drink a day. But, personally, that seems like the dose is pretty high to me. Somebody else who's in a earlier time zone take a look at this!

Pidgey

[Pidgey]

Incidentally, that drug that I weighed out (Dimetridazole, 40%) is dosed at 1/2 teaspoon to the gallon. Since that drug is at twice the strength (40% vs. 20%), I'd be more inclined to think that the package should have said 1 teaspoon to the gallon. Also, I did a quickie look at the big syringe and an ounce is close to 30 milliliters so 1/10 of that (rounding that 0.08 milliliters up) is 3 milliliters and multiplying that by 4 (quart to a gallon) gives you 12 milliliters of water twice a day which wouldn't be unreasonable for a 100 gram dove as long as it wasn't too hot, I think.

Pidgey

[feralpigeon]

Well, I think what she is worried about is that they will not or are not drinking the water. Again, if they have other sources of water....and probably so....she can switch to dosing on the feed and have perhaps more certainty that they will consume the medication. Here's Nooties' breakdown on Metronidazole:

Dose 20-50 mgs per kilo BID or 40-100mgs per kilo OID (Once daily)- 14 days.

Metronidazole being far more forgiving than Dimetradazole, I'm more concerned that they will take to the modality of how it's being served up to them.

fp

[Starshooter]

Wow,

You are all awesome. I should have checked into Pigeon-talk earlier in my life and avoided a lot of heartache.

I'll give the feed mix a try and go back to plain water with ACV.

thanks
Sandy

[Pidgey]

Well, I just checked the new formulary out of CLINICAL AVIAN MEDICINE, Vol 1, and it shows plenty of different dosages for different uses (anaerobic; trichomoniasis, liver parasitic, etc.) and for different species. Higher dosages tend to be for other things; trichomoniasis tends to be lower doses except in raptors--those tend to be high.

Actually, the one column in the formulary that states the reference for a given dose rate is quite interesting in this case because many of the higher doses get the "Published Without Reference" or "Anecdotal" rating. The only one with a "Manufacturer's Recommendation" rating is for 20 mg/kg per day avian for trichomoniasis (there actually is another but it's the same dose rate and shown for poultry). The only one with a "Pharmacokinetic Research" rating is 30 mg/kg BID for chickens (Sandy, "BID" means "twice daily", by the way).

The bulk of the other protocols shown fall into that hazy "somebody, somewhere published this, but there's no clinical backup for whether you oughta' go this wild with this stuff." So, I'm pointing out that since the doses are lower for the checked references and that they should work quite well for trichomoniasis, then it follows that the less there is of the stuff in the water, the more likely they are to drink it. Since Sandy already bought the stuff, it might as well be used as it was meant to be used, at least for one shot to see if they'll drink it especially seeing as how the birds are more likely to standardize on their water intake than their food intake.

Pidgey

[feralpigeon]

Originally Posted by Pidgey

.... Since Sandy already bought the stuff, it might as well be used as it was meant to be used, at least for one shot to see if they'll drink it especially seeing as how the birds are more likely to standardize on their water intake than their food intake.

Pidgey

Actually, Metronidazole is meant/intended also to be used on food, Pidgey, in fact, the 'dusting' of the food is the only method suggested on the DAC package that I have. Along w/the range in dosing is also the consideration of how many days at the level. Notice here in this link from Dr. Walker at the
Australian Pigeon Co. site what he is recommending in terms of range and days:

http://www.auspigeonco.com.au/

Also, the dusting method is one that Dan uses and recommends w/his feral flock for treatments because they do have other water sources. He feels that they are less likely to drink medicated water that they can taste especially when there are other water sources available. He has noticed over the years that they don't turn down the dusted food and goes for the higher dose rate to ensure that a bird that doesn't eat on all the 'dusting' days has enough in the system to knock the canker levels down. He treats his flocks twice yearly for canker and worms. For myself, I have noticed as well that they will eat it on their food without difficulty, yet when in the water, they will shake it out and/or avoid it.

I'm not suggesting that Starshooter purchase a different medication, but rather use another recognized modality for administration. I posted a link for another product as Starshooter had asked about other products, although, in the long run, it may not be a bad idea to eventually have another product on hand for rotation.

fp

[Pidgey]

Actually, it's just meant to be given on a rate per day basis, plain and simple. How you apply that is your business. It's usually a given that when you're medicating a bird, you have that bird in hand and the burden of correct dosing is something that you have to manage in whatever way is the most efficacious.

At the beginning of this thread, the caveat (and no matter that it's been forgotten--it still applies) was given that the flock treatment of birds not in containment may cause undesirable long term effects in that when you can't effectively control the amount of medicine that the bird(s) take(s) in, you run the ultimate risk of creating resistant strains that do not respond to treatment(s). That's ultimately worse.

I posted the information from a real formulary above about the dosage rate because you referenced the "20 to 50 milligrams per kilogram, BID" from Nooti's drug thread. I'll tell you why I'm usually so rigid about sticking to protocols that are derived from actual pharmacokinetic research and the manufacturers' recommendations: they killed a lot of animals trying to figure out how much works and how much harms. They did it in a lab and laboriously determined the numbers while doing ungodly extensive testing.

Sure, the folks that repackage and sell the stuff may (since their net profit depends on how much you use) indicate higher doses. Crap, it's used as an economic aid in the poultry industry by way of preventative measures. By the ton. Needed or not. It's possible that the package that you're referring to that shows it as a feed additive was originally designed for that purpose as a captive flock preventative treatment. Poultry flocks aren't intended for long lives--it's a weight gain issue as they're for harvesting. Conversely, when a bird is your pet or a valued individual, then the dosing methodology deserves a little closer inspection, in my opinion.

If Starshooter is more concerned with the flock as a whole (and since they're not captive, that's certainly the case), then individual bird concerns probably don't matter here, one can use whatever method one wants as long as it gets the bulk of the results that one wants.

Pidgey

[feralpigeon]

From this site, and compliments of the Association of Avian Veterinarian in addition to being pigeon specific:

http://myweb.cableone.net/searl/IWC/...0Formulary.htm

Name: Dimetridazole (Emtryl)

* Description: Dimetridazols is in the 5-nitro-imidazole family of compounds and has been shown to have significant antiprotozoal activity.
* Usage: Trichomoniasis.
* Adverse reactions: Central nervous symptoms with overdosage. Fatalities can occur.
* Dosage: 1/2 to 3/4 teaspoon per gallon for 3 - 5 days (American product no longer available). 1/4 to 3/8 teaspoon per gallon for 3 - 5 days. (Canadian or Mexican product.)
* Comments. Very good for flock treatment. Overdosage with the foreign product is common by individuals using the wrong dosage.

Name: Metronidazole (Flagyl)

* Description: Metronidazole is in the 5-nitro-imidazole family of compounds and has been shown to have significant antiprotozoal activity.
* Usage: Trichomoniasis.
* Adverse reactions: Over dosage can result in central nervous system signs and death.
* Dosage: 50 - 100 mg/bird daily for 4 - 6 days.
* Comments: Not commonly used due to poor solubility in water for flock treatment.

Name: Ronidazol (Ridzol)

* Description: Ronidazol is in the 5-nitro-imidazole family of compounds and has been shown to have significant ntiprotozoal activity.
* Usage: Trichomoniasis.
* Adverse reactions: None at the proper dosage.
* Dosage: 1/2 - 3/4 teaspoon per gallon for 3 - 5 days. 400 mg/gallon for 3 - 5 days.
* Comments: Reported far superior to any drug in the States. Less toxic and more effective. Approved for use only in Europe.

fp