Canker in Mourning Doves

[Starshooter]

Hi.

Just read both the replies. I'm getting a little concerned. Do you think that I should just let nature take its course? Am I creating more of a problem by treating them?

It just breaks my heart to see sick birds and not do anything.

I know that the first dosing of Metronidazole(IV) added to the water made a huge difference in this flock. The sick birds actually got better. I know this with at least three of them, (white tale , one-eye, and gimpy) because of their unusual markings/deformaties. They still come over every day and are doing great. I forgot to tell you about gimpy, he has a deformed leg.

Please be honest with me about dosing these birds. I took your advice and mixed the powder with the food and placed it in the feeders. They are actually eating it.. I changed out the bird baths with plain water and ACV.

What do you think?

Sandy Fisher

[Pidgey]

Well, we've already said what we think, never mind the mildly adversarial nature of the debate. The formulary referenced by actual link is a bit on the dubious side owing to the non-specificity that isn't immediately obvious.

Take the wording "Dosage: 50 - 100 mg/bird daily", for instance. It's been indicated that this is a pigeon formulary, and since it's got the "AU" reference at the top, it's a reasonable assumption that they're talking about homing pigeons, which are absolute monsters compared to your small doves.

Personally, I know that the lower dose rate that I posted earlier works because it's the protocol that I follow to treat the birds that I get that are dying of canker. That protocol is miles away from the other dose rates being posted. It is just a personal preference of mine to acquire what I consider to be the most reliable references published for things like this and adhere rigidly to them. There is agreement between AVIAN MEDICINE: PRINCIPLES AND APPLICATION by Ritchie, Harrison & Harrison, MANUAL OF AVIAN PRACTICE by Rupley and CLINICAL AVIAN MEDICINE (Vol. 1) by Harrison & Lightfoot for the dosage rate that I posted. That last book does also list some higher dose rates in keeping with what fp posted, though. I just take special note that each reference in that specific formulary has its own grade of where the information comes from (the class of the reference) and I arbitrarily choose the ones derived from actual laboratory animal testing.

Have any of these references or formularies which give ominous warnings like "Adverse reactions: Over dosage can result in central nervous system signs and death" bothered to kindly give some idea of that threshold? Well, no... so it's kind of vague, isn't it? Shoot, it might be up there so high that this little debate is insignificant.

In theory, the feed option works well as long as your birds aren't gorging themselves in a drive-by. An anorectic bird (sick enough to not want to eat) may not get enough medication that way and might do better with the water. Another bird might get too much from water medication if it has the beginning stages of coccidiosis and is drinking way too much. Any time that you flock-treat, you run the risk that individuals on the fringes of consumption will under or over dose.

Personally, I don't flock treat. I try to capture individuals that are in a bad way and then deal with them on a more intimate basis. But then, I don't have your problem--a flock of doves dying on the installment plan right in front of my work window every day.

What you do is up to you and (I hate to say this) may require some trial and error to find out what brings the best results. I don't know that anyone here on the board seriously gets into wild flock treatment and certainly not with any real objectivity (tagging and tracking all the birds, their nests, and their young). It's very easy to say, "well, I do this and my flock stays the same year 'round!" but face the facts: if those birds are really healthy, they're likely to raise four clutches a year (8 nestlings). That would indicate almost a 400% increase the first year if they all survived. It ends up being an exponential growth and keeps getting worse. But, they don't all survive and the population stays in a basic equilibrium. That's a lotta' dyin'.

Realistically, review all the material, try a few different ways, take your best shot and try to protect your own little flock as best you can. The flock is not a single bird and it may happen down the road that you just got through a treatment run and another bird shows up obviously sick. Do you sacrifice that one bird to let the flock go awhile without treatment to have a rest? Or do you hit 'em all again for the sake of the one? That's where it gets really tough, trading the unseen (possible organ damage) for the haunting sight of a dying dove.

And who knows, you might trade one evil for another in the long run--you might increase the survivability within the flock such that your local population increases and with that explosion comes an increase in the local Cooper's Hawk population. When you consider things like that, it gets very complex, indeed.

Pidgey

[feralpigeon]

Originally Posted by Starshooter

Hi.

Just read both the replies. I'm getting a little concerned. Do you think that I should just let nature take its course? Am I creating more of a problem by treating them?

Hi Starshooter,

I don't think that you are creating more of a problem by treating for canker per se. If you are seeing symptoms, and it does appear from some of the reading material I've come accross that there's a larger concern w/doves than pigeons, then I think it is an appropriate response to treat. Sure, folks may have different opinions on the topic inside and out of the medical profession , ultimatlely folks choose what feels right to them.

It just breaks my heart to see sick birds and not do anything.

I would have a hard time seeing a flock problem in the making, knowing that I have the mediction at home, and do nothing to try and help. Even if this meant that I needed to order something that I'd run out of.

I know that the first dosing of Metronidazole(IV) added to the water made a huge difference in this flock. The sick birds actually got better. I know this with at least three of them, (white tale , one-eye, and gimpy) because of their unusual markings/deformaties. They still come over every day and are doing great. I forgot to tell you about gimpy, he has a deformed leg.

Please be honest with me about dosing these birds. I took your advice and mixed the powder with the food and placed it in the feeders. They are actually eating it.. I changed out the bird baths with plain water and ACV.

I'm being very honest when I say that I would and have treated feral flocks as a flock when I felt that canker was becoming a problem. I also think the topic has come up here in the past about treating feral flocks and there are members who seem to from reading posts.

What do you think?

Sandy Fisher

I put the the formulary developed by the AAV for the AU to show the range--one that I believe you to be in, also the comments about whether or not Metronidazole was added to water or feed. I also frequently add info to a member that I believe they may not have seen &/or might benefit by seeing a particular link. While doves may be smaller than a racing pigeon, this is a feral flock and there are enough different ways of dosing to ensure that a bird has had enough to knock the canker down for there to be some variances. Sometimes in fact, in a severe situation an individual bird has two kinds of canker medication doubled up and administered to save the bird. Whether you choose to go with a lower dose, the dose rate on the package, put it in water or powder oiled seed with it, I think that these are all things that ultimately are up to you. You are there in the moment seeing what the effects and symptoms are. Personally, I believe that you are helping the doves, and for that matter, helping a raptor as well for catching a dove w/canker will pass it along to them.

Here's a link to Snowbird's discussion on the topic:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpo...17&postcount=3

from this thread:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showth...9317#post49317

fp

[KIPPY]

i use 2 tablespoons acv to their water everyday. i treat their water every month or 2 with either pegosan, med pet or global multi mix. I will have a sick bird every now and then but not like i use to.
never had any luck with morning doves they are so fragile.
good luck getting it under control it is a heartbreaker.

i have to agree, i would rather drink acv before bleach. at least the pigeons won't have to worry about a straw and destroying the enamel on their teeth.

[Starshooter]

Just wanted to give you an update on the Canker outbreak in the mourning doves in my backyard.

I took the advice of mixing 1 tsp of Metronidazole to 1 lb of food. It worked. Even the sick doves could get a little down. I have not had a severly sick dove now for about a 12 days. Even the ones that I was monitoring (recognizable by unique markings) are doing extremly well. Each day they stopped by to eat, they were eating easier and getting more down. And today are showing no indications of illness.

I ordered some emytrl as a backup if I need to do a followup dosing. But, have not used it yet as there is no evidence of canker in this flock. I am still adding ACV everyday to fresh water.

Thanks again for all your advice. Without it, I would have been lost. I will try to get some good shots of the flock and post soon. Even the new young ones. They are so cute!

Sandy Fisher
Meridian, Idaho

[mr squeaks]

Many thanks for the updates, Sandy! That's wonderful news!!

Here's to continued success! Pictures will be most welcomed!

[TAWhatley]

That's great news, Sandy! I'm so glad your flock is managing to recover with your dedicated help.

Terry

[pdpbison]

Hi Sandy,


Excellent...

The 'Emtryl' ( or Dimetridazole, if memory serve) is far less forgiving of course then the Metronidazole or the Ronidazole, but is an old reliable medicine, even IF it can make them 'walk like Frankenstein' for a while, if they get a little too much...

Now, too, I have been off and on singing the praises of 'Berimax' which became about impossible to obtain here in the States...and I had lost the contact info I had in some computer files from awhile back, from before I installed a New Hard-Drive...and the previousd US distributor ceased to carry it...but...

I found some notes and will contact the Manufacturer soon...

If I can order a Case of it or something, you'd be welcome to some and to try it out.

It is an excellent anti-protozoon, anti-trichomona recourse, and also deals with a wide range of other undesireable bacteria, amoeba and whatnot else.

AND, it's dosage is very forgiving, and an overdose would have to practically be a condition of pouring the Bottle's contents down the Bird's throat with a Funnel or something, and even then it likely would do no harm to them, aside from maybe making a funny tummy for a while...as well as that it is reputed to decease otherwise 'resistive' strains of Trichomona which had not yeilded to the older long established Medicines ( or been bred, unwittingly, from under-doseing or casual pre-emptive use of such medicines...)

I myself like the taste, like a Summer Aperitiv, or 'Compari' or other kindred 'Bitters, which when added to Water make a refreshing beverage, and my various Birds these last many months whom I have treated with it, have shown no objection to it either...so...

My new Cockateil even seemed to like it, as has everyone else...and it cleared up his 'yellow' urates in about a business-week...so they have been 'white' since...

Anyway, I will let you ( and you all ) know if I am able to get a Case of it or something...

I have had very good results with it for quite tender and young Pigeon and Dove Babys and Infants also, where, oweing to their frailty and very small size, the 'Berimax' seems quite gentle and safe, while as we know, the otherwise usual Medicines can be a little dicey...

The irony of course, is that mild strains or transient infections, occuring in an otherwise healthy Pigeon or Dove, can allow them to acquire a nice resistance or relative immunity, if re-exposed later...but their Babys, I doubt would benifit from this, if an adult parent is successfully fighting off a mild infection to gain a later immunity or resistance...while feeding it's neonates...


Best wishes...

Phil
Las Vegas

[cesarh]

Originally Posted by Starshooter

Just wanted to give you an update on the Canker outbreak in the mourning doves in my backyard.

I took the advice of mixing 1 tsp of Metronidazole to 1 lb of food. It worked. Even the sick doves could get a little down. I have not had a severly sick dove now for about a 12 days. Even the ones that I was monitoring (recognizable by unique markings) are doing extremly well. Each day they stopped by to eat, they were eating easier and getting more down. And today are showing no indications of illness.

I ordered some emytrl as a backup if I need to do a followup dosing. But, have not used it yet as there is no evidence of canker in this flock. I am still adding ACV everyday to fresh water.

Thanks again for all your advice. Without it, I would have been lost. I will try to get some good shots of the flock and post soon. Even the new young ones. They are so cute!

Sandy Fisher
Meridian, Idaho

Hi Sandy...

I have sick doves... in my backyard.

Did the sick ones look like they were even more sick after the application of Metronidazole, and how many times a day did you feed them?

Thanks so much... glad to hear your doves are doing better.

[cesarh]

I meant to say after my first application...