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#16
8th July 2005, 01:48 PM
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Crickets which have been allowed to eat their fill of nutritious food, good for wharever eats the crickets, ie, birdies, reptiles.
Daryl 
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#17
8th July 2005, 02:27 PM
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Hi Daryl, I just wanted to tell you how much I always enjoy reading your posts. Your descriptions are always so colorful and comical while still relaying such good information. Keep those posts comin'! Thanks Linda 
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#18
11th July 2005, 05:23 PM
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Hi Brad,
Sorry, I thought we were reviewing in order to share notes...as overview and for the future... If you think feeding K-T to a Mocking Bird makes sense, I will be sure to accept you do not need or want my opinions on that. The Wild Sparrows, Mocking Birds and Starlings I had seen hereabouts, seemed to eat bites out of the Peaches and Cherries and Pears on the Trees, so, call me sentimental I guess. So when I had raised them from orphan Babys, I tended to feed them a little of those things. Also, when older then and self feeding, if I offered some on a plate, they stood on the half Pear and pecked out little bites to their hearts content. Same with Cherries and Peaches and so on... So tell me they never eat them? That they are wrong for them? Why do the wild ones eat them then? ...what am I supposed to think..? The Starlings and Mockers seem to eat primarily insects as far as I have seen, or do you feed them 'Seeds'? You think they are grain Eaters? ...and should be fed K-T, which is a grain Product...okay...I get that, sorry if somehow you are offended that I did not happen to have ever thought they were Grain eaters. Jeeeeeze...if I have been over detailed, it is because I know from almost every occasion of newcomers, or from my own seekinf of information, that a few blunt tips tend to leave out some important things, then the left out parts are what gets the Bird hurt or dead...and most people new to this are going to kill a Baby song Bird putting Water into it's throat with a dropper. Yes? No? Maybe? Pardner, if you do not like my posts, I guess there is not much I can do about it! If you think my info is bad, or my methods are bad, then start a thread to review my bad info and maybe we can get it straightened up. If I am mistaken, I will appreciate being set right... And if not, then maybe you can get some of yours set right. Yes? Are we here to learn and to share? I think we are! Phil las vegas Last edited by pdpbison; 11th July 2005 at 05:37 PM.
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#19
11th July 2005, 05:27 PM
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Hi Phil,
I don't think anyone was suggesting feeding Kaytee Exact to insectivores .. just that many of us have had good success with it for doves and pigeons. Terry
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#20
11th July 2005, 05:41 PM
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Hi Terry,
I feel I have neen clear in my mentions of K-T as a good handy ingredient, and I did say I thought it was not right for Insectivores. This should be it's own thread probably, as for who is it right for, and whether one does nothing-but K-T, or kindly makes meals which include it as well as other things, or omits it altogether. I have a Baby Starling now, so I will start a thread about that in 'Other Birds'... I do not feel I was ever disparaging about K-T, just wishing for us to think about what it is, and when and how to use it, and not to be complaiscent because it is merely 'handy'. Did not this thread begin with several Baby Starlings being fed nothing but K-T, then 'Tums' and some other things and most of them died? Then soon after, the remaining one died? I thought there was a plea, in effect, for some review...;some overview, for various responders to offer tips or insights useful to those confronting Baby Birds of the Omnivore or Carnivore kinds... We have posters feeding insects to Baby Pigeons... What to feed them is a worthy topic I think...as is, what not to feed them. Do I not understand Brad to insist that K-T is what one should use for Mockers and Starlings? And to have chastised me for my protestation of that practice..? Maybe there have been some confusiuons...? Best wishes... Phil Las Vegas Last edited by pdpbison; 11th July 2005 at 05:48 PM.
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#21
11th July 2005, 06:36 PM
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Hi Phil,
Yes, I think has been some confusion here. I was not suggesting Kaytee for the starling at all (not that you couldn't add it to a proper formula for starlings) but this person had already realized it wasn't the best thing to give. "I found him saturday and fed him Exact until (Yesterday) was told by rehaber people that exact doesn't contain enough nutrients alone needed to survive and gave me a recipe for baby starling food." Personally for myself, I've never seen a starling eat a pear or a peach by attempting to poke at them to get pieces of the whole fruit. That's not saying they will not eat fruit though because I've seen them eat berries and small cherries. Starlings in fact will also eat seeds (at least here they do), but they do not prefer them. When I used to feed the birds in my backyard in the winter, the starlings would come around with the other birds and eat the seeds eagerly. The main points I wanted to make (to you) in my earlier post in this thread were 1) that you can give water to a baby song bird via an eyedropper if necessary to rehydrate them. 2) to try to explain to you or make you see that Kaytee is fine in general terms (you have many times in numerous threads dismissed it's usefulness), and 3) to suggest that your post was out of context given the fact that the starling died and offering these suggestions in this particular thread would serve no purpose since she was so obviously distraught over losing the bird. I admit I was a little cranky myself and I apologize for that. But I was trying to make you understand these few things without turning this thread into another 4 pages of us debating the issues.
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#22
11th July 2005, 06:49 PM
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Hi Brad,
It makes sense to me that one can give a Baby Songbird 'water' in a dropper. Can we agree, that most first timers are liiable to misshap, and if so, they are not going to like what happens then? And that the Bird will not like what happens "then" either? We can feed them directly into their Crops also...and, without detailed instructions about how to do it, or some reason really to do it if other unassayed alternatives are not known, even maybe something such as information on what size of tube or Catheter or end of a syringe ( remember the bleeding Crops and throats from this being written in about? for that matter, when done withsomething too hard or too wide or something?) , would you advise a first timer to do it merely because they heard it can be done? and do it with what implement? I think you would want them to know how to do it correctly, to use an appropriate tool or device, and not merely, for them to hear that it 'can' be done where they will then try it and very possibly, make a disaster. Same here... I have seen people kill young Sparrows when dribbleing a little Water to their Beak sides...many stories of how "Well, it dies, we fed it some cracker crumbs soaked in milk, and, it ate some, we gave it some water from an eyedropper and it had some spasms, and died..." and so on... Maybe these kinds of anecdotes made too much of an impression on me. I worry... Lets save the K-T for it's own review in it's own thread sometime...it is a worthy topic for all of us to run through... Thanks Brad, Phil Las Vegas
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#23
13th July 2005, 08:41 AM
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Re the fruit issue. Back when I rehabbed songbirds I got in 4 baby mockingbirds - they were only a day or so old, eyes still closed, etc. The people who found them said they were in bushes they were clipping and although I tried to get them to put the babies back they still brought them to me - 5 hours after the phone call! The babies were water-logged because their little girl said teacher had told them baby birds needed water so she gave them water every few minutes until I got them. I don't see how they survived that much. Needless to say I didn't have to rehydrate them.
I never was taught to give birds fruit. I had been taught to give birds dicalcium phosphate on their food to help prevent metabolic bone disease so that's what I did with these little ones. Mockers can develop this condition more than most birds although I have had some robins come down with it also. The babies did fine, opened eyes, and started moving around in the nest. Then, one of them jumped out of the little nest and immediately broke its leg. The other three started coming down with MBD like dominoes. I increased the calcium (took the one with the broken leg to the vet but leg was broken at the body and later died) and kept them at ground level to prevent any more jumping. We went to our home at the beach and took the birds with us. While there, I visited the Outer Banks Wildlife Center in Morehead City NC - a well respected rehab group (www.owlsonline.org/index.html) and asked them what they did for this disease. They told me they had never had a problem with it because they gave their songbirds fruits and berries. After that, I fed these little guys apples, peaches, grapes, mulberries (wild) cherries - any kind of fruit except avacados (not even sure they are fruit) I could find. They all improved to the point that they could be released - their bones were nice and strong. After that, each and every songbird I got in had fruit added to the menu. I debated about even mentioning this because I don't want to get involved in any exchange but everyone in this forum is dedicated to the care of birds and I hope this info will be helpful.
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#24
13th July 2005, 01:54 PM
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Lady Tarheel,
Any and all opinions and info is helpful and appreciated, oh, you silly girl. Any thing that will help a little'un is great. Daryl
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#25
13th July 2005, 02:05 PM
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Hi lady tarheel,
Truely, it is good to discuss these things. Dogma, rote learning, hearsay, the emotional charge or spin from information that came from cranky or scolding elders or those in positions of authority..all can impede our ability to think, to reason and to learn. I just wrote a really good post here and my dsl failed and I lost it on refresh! so...lost my mood also for now, a little bit. But, anyway... Yes, these Mockers and other Birds in the wild do eat many kinds of small Berries and fruiting bodies of Plants and of course many kinds of Insects and Bugs ( whose intestines and stomachs contain whatever the Insect or Bug had been eating plant-wise, chlorophyll wise and so on)...and, they also eat Fish when they can catch them in little pond edges and so on, they eat algae, they eat lots of things. Yet so far, for me, the rehabbers I have spoken with who work under someone's federal licenses, feed theirs dry dog food and so on, languid or torpid refridgerator Meal Worms out of the carton and get really angry with me to find I have fed mine Fish and Fruit and Sea Weed and so on. This happened yesterday a little, the rehabber gal who I am going to turn over my baby Grackle to, got a-l-m-o-s-t angry and really raised her voice when she asked what I have been feeding it... "Canned Water Pack Sardines, pending my trip to the Sushi-Bar for Livers and guts and so on...thin slices of ripe Cherry that I mash between my finger tips to break the cell walls a little...Goji Berries soaked in Water and torn in half...these all moistened in good water in a little cup, onto all of which I sprinkle some Chlorella, some "Nekton" Bird Vites and Mins and Enzymes and Amino Acids, and a dash of pro-biotics..." The rehabbers outrage was palpable but they handled it with restraint since I guess they kinda do not want to realy lay into me since I am supposed to be bring them the little Bird. Everything they DID ask about was really just a gambit to find fault or to levy thiny veiled contempt... If I had a way to let my little Grackle baby be with other Aunt or Uncle grackles and learn grackle things, if I had a way to assimilate it unto it's wild kin, I would not have been willing to get off of it and let this gal or anyone else take over unless I really DID like their attitude and methods and sensitivities and maeers to me and to their Birds. I think it is a trade off, she CAN get the socializeing assimilation thing done, but I think I am a lot better at raising them so far as careing about them and feeding them things they do well with eating, and doing well at getting them to feel comfotable and easy and happy with the situation. She managed not to yell when saying "Grackles do NOT eat FISH!!!!!" but it galled her NOT to yell...too... I had said I did the same with any insect eating Bird Babys... Venom...dripped from her fangs I think...Lol... Yet...if one goes onto the internet to find what Naturalists SEE Grackles actually catch and eat..."Small Fish, Snails, Slugs, Minnows, Frogs, Tadpoles, Algae, wide ranges of Berries and fruiting bodies of Plants and Trees, small Animals, young Bats, Snakes, Lizards...on and on..." Sparrows eat carrion also..which sometimes IS Fish if they are in areas where Fish occur... Mockers in-the-wild, too for that matter...eat all kinds of things if they can get them. We talked about the Bone Disease, which untill yesterday I had never heard of...she insisted that whatever Mockers I had raised, would have had it, and hence ( like all under their own or someone else's license rehabbers I have spoken with ) all my efforts for any species have failed and I have accomplished, in their view, "nothing", since according to them, all my Birds fail...and I am doing everything 'wrong'. She says there is a secret item which Mockers need but she would not say what it is. You mention it here, which is nice... I mentioned, that I had one of my non-releaseable Mockers for like 6 years, (got wilty-sick and died and I did not know from what at-the-time, and I was in the middle of a break up with my long time gal, my mom had had a stroke and I was getting messed with bad from a contractor I just did a big gig for and he was trying to stiff me on the pay, and I was very harries at the time - and had no Vet to go to or it might have lived much longer of course...) and it had stong bones and hopped well and did bone stressing things with never a problem like any normal Bird does, and so on but was not a good flier from a babyhood injury. I never saw any bone weakness or problems...and she snorted on how I did not know how to notice it or maybe the Bird would get them later and so on... Anyway... On and on... I can do nothing 'right' in their view... At least the rehabbers you reference ARE hip to learning and useing judgement and sense... Good to hear... Love, Phil Las Vegas Last edited by pdpbison; 13th July 2005 at 02:41 PM.
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#26
14th July 2005, 01:36 AM
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Took Grackle Baby to be with other Grackle Babys and adolescent ones pending it's stages of developement unto assimilation into the wild Grackle community...
I feel bad, I feel like I did the wrong thing here, I feel like I betrayed the little Grackle who was really doing well here and already learned the various drills and progressed so much just in these few days, unto being a good percher and a novice climber even. The rehabber gal who does the grackles, under the beee-hatch who has the federal license...was kinda dim witted, kinda pedantic and rote and wealthy dim wit husband, big fancy house, decent aviary for the grackles in the back yard...a rote, pedantic practitioner...who could do this for fourty years and never make one discovery or learn anything on her own about any of it. Does just what the boss lady taught her to do and never a thought in her head otherwise. Anyway, I dunno what else. Just the little Grackle is a wonderful, fun, very very smart little Bird who was a complete joy in every way. A good communicator and sharp as a tack. Hope (s)he makes out okay... All the Grackles in the aviary looked good, healthy, clean, bright...hoping arouns and so on, young ones not quite ready-to-go...that was good, I trust her to do some kind of okay job of it...but not more than that...so... Golly... ...ethics are a complex matter sometimes! Is 'this' what was really best for this Bird? I don't know...but I decided it was a trade off. The extra special fun and care and so on he/she woulda got here, getting to hang out with Dove Baby and in time, the others, and all the good chow...got traded for him to be with his/her own kind and to be released by someone who claimed to know how to do it for Grackles. So... Okay... Phil Las Vegas
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#27
14th July 2005, 01:47 AM
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Took Grackle Baby to be with other Grackle Babys and adolescent ones pending it's stages of developement unto assimilation into the wild Grackle community...
I feel bad, I feel like I did the wrong thing here, I feel like I betrayed the little Grackle who was really doing well here and already learned the various drills and progressed so much just in these few days, unto being a good percher and a novice climber even, a 'hopper' sometimes, and interested in the things around him. This gal will give him/her no personal attention oother than to do a fast feed by whenever the clock says to. No matter the Bird cheeps or not, and no matter in general. No exploreing with it to catch Bugs and so on soon as it is old enough, no spending time with it, just into the aviary and routine feed scedules. And boreing food. The rehabber gal who does the grackles, under the beeeeeeeee-hatch who has the federal license...was kinda dim witted, kinda pedantic and rote and has a wealthy dim wit husband, big fancy house, decent enough and sincere aviary for the grackles in the back yard... But...a rote, pedantic practitioner...who could do this for fourty years and never make one discovery, and never interact with a Bird authentically or in it's terms...nor learn anything new on her own about any of it. Does just what the boss lady taught her to do back when, and never a thought in her head otherwise...since. Anyway, I dunno what else. Just the little Grackle is a wonderful, fun, very very smart little Bird who was a complete joy in every way. A good communicator, and sharp as a tack. Hope (s)he makes out okay... All the Grackles in the aviary looked good, healthy, clean, bright...hopping around and and flying and so on, young ones not quite ready-to-go...that was good, I trust her to do some kind of okay job of it...but not much more than that...so... Golly... ...ethics are a complex matter sometimes! Is 'this' what was really best for this Bird? I don't know...but I decided it was a trade off. The extra special fun and care and stimulation and so on he/she woulda got here, getting to hang out with Dove Baby and in time, the others, and all the good chow...got traded for him to be with his/her own kind and to be fed boreing chow, and to get to be released by someone who claimed to know how to do it for Grackles. So... Okay... Thats the tale! I NEVER feel like this when I release a Bird... I allways feel a wistfullness and pride IN them and how nice they grew up and all...how I believe in them and am glad they are free to make their life and so on. I feel those things and they feel good. This one...I feel like I should have kept it and done the hand off in three weeks or something, instead...so it could socialize and so on with other Grackle hand reared ones...."then"... But too, now that I think of it, almost no Wild raised Birds are going to get socialized unto their Wild kin's ways untill after the are fliers anyway, really...but they do have their parents to show them and so on, once they can fly a little, they have Aunts, Uncles too to show them and introduce them and so on. This gals Birds have no Wild Grackle parents orWild Aunts and so on to do this, so how or why is it that I should believe ( now that I am brooding more) that she can do it any better than I could have? Hmmmm... Things to ponder... Well, anyway... God Bless all... Phil Las Vegas Last edited by pdpbison; 14th July 2005 at 01:54 AM.
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#28
14th July 2005, 06:19 AM
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Phil,
You did what you had to do, no doubt about it. And you kept that baby happy and healthy long enough for the move to the new house. Don't feel bad or guilty about any thing you did. This baby now will have the opportunity to become the little grackle it was meant to be, instead of a bird with an identity crisis. "Is I a pigeon, or is I a grackle, or is I a person"? Daryl
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#29
14th July 2005, 10:49 AM
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Daryl, Thanks for the "girl" reference - don't I wish!
Re the rehabber. Caring for one grackle or one starling or one anything is vastly different from caring for a lot of birds at one time. If you care for just one bird at the time you can give it all the care and attention it needs. Many songbird rehabbers can care for hundreds of birds during the summer. That means from sun-up until well past sun-down. They care for all different types of birds with different diets and needs. It is a constant job of preparing formula, chopping fruits and vegetables, changing bedding, going to the vet, filling out reports, etc. If the lady rehabber has a number of unlicensed rehabbers working under her supervision she is also responsible for all of their actions. It is also a gut-wrenching job because you just can't save them all and each death takes a little something out of you. There are too few songbird (and pigeon) rehabbers - most people would rather do mammals because they are not as time consuming. While the birds are still very small and are fed from a syringe or whatever they're having popped into their mouths they are less "trouble" - it is when you are trying to wean them and they start being more independent that the real challange starts. At least that was my experience. So Phil, maybe you could get with this lady from time to time and help her out with her little guys - she may wind up not being a monster but someone who is just so caring that she worries about anything that she hasn't been exposed to - like grackles eating fish! We all care for our birds to some extent "by the seat of our pants" and if something has worked for us, we may be a little resistent to trying anything new. I just know that I love working with pigeons best of all. One last thing about the fruits and berries. I forgot to mention that holly berries can be poisonous to birds - at least in large quantities. We learned that the hard way. From 1976 until 1980 we cared for an injured Evening Grosbeak (back then you had to get written permission from the feds on each bird) and we started feeding it holly berries. He got very sick and the only vet around here with any bird training contacted the Poison Control Center and that's when we found out. By then it was too late and our well loved "Starsky" died. Phil, you sound like you have your heart in the right place and I enjoy and learn from the things you write (as well as everyone else in this forum). .
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#30
14th July 2005, 10:49 AM
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Hi Daryl,
Lol... Thanks... I could 'see' it in my mind's eye last night, middle of the night when I went to bed. Little Grackle..fruzz on it's head. I think (s)he will make out allright. Lots to do here! I gotta be packing to move! Yea! Then..I can live somewhere where I might build a nice Flight Pen and Aviary or two... Phil Las Vegas
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