Wet orphan crow can't fly- will he be ok?

[spirit wings]

Originally Posted by Bella_F

The whole point of this story , for me, is to document my heart-felt attempts at saving a wild crow who is too mobile to capture, and would probably be destroyed if I did manage it. This thread is for someone like me, who might be in my position some day and has the time to really care.

Tomorrow I am biting the bullet and giving him his first ivermectin treatment for what i believe is a pretty bad feather mite infestation. I have agonised over this dagnosis, but I've picked up feathers that he has lost or pulled out, and they show all the symptoms.

In my gut, I believe that he was abandoned because of these parasites, and it also explains his failure to be adopted by the two breeding families who are close to him. It also explains why his size & weight seems right for his age, but his feather condition and confidence in his flying is not up to scratch, and seems to be regressing.

If all goes well, he will be rid of the adult mites within a few days, and of the eggs in 2 weeks time. His feathers are not so bad he can't fly yet, so I believe this has been caught in time.

Its just nerve wracking right now. ivermectin is something you can't mess up and I'm nervous. So please wish me luck...

Trust your instincts Bella, gut feelings are usually right...I use ivormec sheep drench on my chickens and pigeons, they did fine on that. It makes sense to use it as you can not spray him on a regular basis.......good luck.

[Bella_F]

Originally Posted by spirit wings

Trust your instincts Bella, gut feelings are usually right...I use ivormec sheep drench on my chickens and pigeons, they did fine on that. It makes sense to use it as you can not spray him on a regular basis.......good luck.

Hi Spirit wings,

Today I had a lot of confusion and upset feelings about this ivermectin treatment the vet gave me, and I'm wondering what your thoughts are?

The concentration of the ivermectin given to me is 10mg/ml (1% concentration), which is for cattle, the vet told me. I'm pretty certain you're meant to use Ivermectin concentration for sheep, not cattle, so I double checked with the vet.

She sounded like she didn't really know, as she evaded answering really simple questions, like what body weight is the dose based on, and how much is ` a unit' of the 1% ivermectin. I felt a bit off after the phone call, because she seemed evasive and weird about it all.

So I rang two avian vets, but they won't help me at all . They wouldn't tell me if the dose `sounded about right' or even whether the dose would kill it But they also were extremely negative about the dose I had been given, but refused to give me the reason. I pressed and pressed but they winded up saying they didn't want legal problems and were not going to help me.

So where I am at, is I don't know if the dose is right. The vet who gave it to me says it is right, but I want a second opinion and I don't know who to ask.

[Charis]

Bella...a 10 pound animal would get 1/10 of 1 ml at 1% concentration. It doesn't matter if it's for cattle or sheep.
How much do you think this Crow weighs and how do you intend to administer the drug..via food or via water?
Perhaps one of those rehabbers you told us about could help you with the dose as they would be familiar with the weight of that particular species of Crow.
The treatment does need to be repeated in 10-14 days.

It also would help to know if it's injectable or drench variety.

[spirit wings]

Originally Posted by Bella_F

Hi Spirit wings,

Today I had a lot of confusion and upset feelings about this ivermectin treatment the vet gave me, and I'm wondering what your thoughts are?

The concentration of the ivermectin given to me is 10mg/ml (1% concentration), which is for cattle, the vet told me. I'm pretty certain you're meant to use Ivermectin concentration for sheep, not cattle, so I double checked with the vet.

She sounded like she didn't really know, as she evaded answering really simple questions, like what body weight is the dose based on, and how much is ` a unit' of the 1% ivermectin. I felt a bit off after the phone call, because she seemed evasive and weird about it all.

So I rang two avian vets, but they won't help me at all . They wouldn't tell me if the dose `sounded about right' or even whether the dose would kill it But they also were extremely negative about the dose I had been given, but refused to give me the reason. I pressed and pressed but they winded up saying they didn't want legal problems and were not going to help me.

So where I am at, is I don't know if the dose is right. The vet who gave it to me says it is right, but I want a second opinion and I don't know who to ask.

Hi Bella, sorry I can not be of more help with the ivomec, but I will just tell you what instructions I used for flock treatment of pigeons

ivomec 0.08% solution
3 tablespoons per gallon of water for one day
repeat 21 days later.

that is all I know for domestic birds, so using in food is going to be different.

[altgirl35]

hi bella it's so sad to hear that rehabbers would euth a perfectly healthy bird that just needs a little time to regrow healthy feathers, poor baby.
i never have used ivermectin with birds simply because i use the pyrethrin spray if they have mites, and some rehabbers i know won't even use that, because they have had adverse reactions.
but of course you actually need to be in possession of the bird for that because they sometimes need to be treated more than once.
wish i was there i would grab him in heartbeat when he was wet and care for him, your doing a good thing hopefully the treatment will resolve the issue and he will molt soon and regain his waterproofing, keep us updated

[Bella_F]

Originally Posted by altgirl35

hi bella it's so sad to hear that rehabbers would euth a perfectly healthy bird that just needs a little time to regrow healthy feathers, poor baby.
i never have used ivermectin with birds simply because i use the pyrethrin spray if they have mites, and some rehabbers i know won't even use that, because they have had adverse reactions.
but of course you actually need to be in possession of the bird for that because they sometimes need to be treated more than once.
wish i was there i would grab him in heartbeat when he was wet and care for him, your doing a good thing hopefully the treatment will resolve the issue and he will molt soon and regain his waterproofing, keep us updated

Hi Altgirl and spirit wings,

Thanks for your good wishes, I really appreciate them.

[LokotaLoft]

Bella what is the dose they gave you ??? I hope this bird never forgets the hand that feeds it and someday shows you its thanks by flying high and free like the wind in you hair

[Bella_F]

Dear Charis and LokotaLoft

I have a skinny syringe with `units' on it. It looks about a quarter of an inch in diameter, and I was told to give it two units in a ball of minced meat (and another 2 units in 2 weeks time to kill the eggs ) . The bottle was 10mg/ml concentration.

I *think* that 1 X unit = 1/100th of one ml and 2 X units equals 2/100ths of one m;. But the vets were all evasive about it. But Why? I just don't understand them.

The vet said the dose is based on a bird 200 grams in weight, for the sake of being conservative. I think that 200g would be a bit under, but it would cover extra weight loss due to its condition.

PS. Going by those figures that you gave me Charis, 10 pounds equals 4.5 kilos, or 4500 grams. So a 2 unit dose (2/100 of a ml) would be for a 900 gram bird? Does that sound right?

[Charis]

So you think the bird is about 2 pounds which is approximately what 4500 grams equals...if so...that is the correct dose 2/100 of a ml.

[LokotaLoft]

bella from what I know and have been told to give a pigeon of the ivermect was no more then 3 drops of it so Im guessing with a crow that would be a little larger then a pigeon but cant see it being more then 6 drops and right now In not sure how much that would measure out to be so hope some one else can help you with that .

[Bella_F]

Yes, I think it sounds all wrong too, lokotaloft, especially after what Charis said. The bird is closer to 200g, not 4.5 kg. I'm sorry, we use the metric system in Australia, so its hard to make sense of the information documented by Americans, which seems to be the best and most thorough that is available. I keep having to make conversions, but they don't sound right.

I know he needs his dose of ivermectin, and I believe it will really help with his feathers which have tiny holes all through them and don't protect him from water. But I have more research to do...thanks for helping! I need the help.

[rook]

Hi Bella_F,

I have got a very good and reliable book with avian formulary for all common generally used drugs in my bookshelf at home. However, I'm at work now... I will check for you as soon as I'm back home (in about 3 hours).

Stephan.

[rook]

Okay, here we are.

"Ivermectin (10 mg/ml injectable solution) - dosage: 0.2 mg / kg intramuscular or subcutaneously or orally" (NB: this section refers to the treatment of endoparasites like worm infestations).

"Also active against ectoparasites. Dilute 1:50 in propylene glycol, 1.0 ml / kg oral or percutaneous administration." (NB: this refers to the treatment of ectoparasites e.g. mites).

Source: British Small Animal Veterinary Association, BSAVA Manual of Wildlife Casualties, Avian Formulary, ©2003.

Hope this helps. Stephan

[altgirl35]

oh boy, a lot of confusion going on here both my books seem to vary from one another and it get confusing because it need to be diluted in these formulas, and i don't want to give the wrong advice or contridct anyone here. i would call the local rehabbers explain whats going on tell them what you have all they can do is say no.
the .2 mls or .2 ccs or .2 units sounds like a proper dosage to me if it's undiluted.
we have to remember that much of the time birds take a higher mg per kg with many medications because of thier high metabolism

[Bella_F]

Thanks so much for all the information and tips, its helps SO much. I'll need a little bit of time to absorb this information carefully, but it sounds like I need to drastically dilute this dose of ivermectin, using Propylene Glycol.