Ringneck dove with overgrown scissorbeak

[Pigeonpal2002]

Hi Gang,

My co-worker's sister has a pair of white ringneck doves and the female has an overgrown scissorbeak. It's getting quite bad and it apparently was intially caused from the male being aggressive and pulled it out of alignment during him "driving" her.

The top mandible is straight but curves down like a hawk or Victor's Beaksley. The bottom mandible is jutting out to the side and is also overgrown. I'm told that the dove can still eat on her own, but her preening ability has been compromised.

I'm going to see if I can get some pictures of this soon but I'm not sure what to suggest or do. I've never done a "filing" myself and told her to take the dove to an avian vet to have it done. Apparently she's called a few in the area, but they either said they couldn't or wouldn't do it. I'm a little leary of recommending my avian vet to be honest and I'm not sure if she'd do it anyway.

I guess my question is & before I suggest/call my vet, how simple or hard is it? These birds seem so small to me and delicate, they aren't like my big birds that I'm used to handling. I've never filed a beak down and would be terrified to do it myself, I'd feel awful if I botched the job.

In the meantime and until I get the pictures, any advice would be nice.

Thanks,

[feralpigeon]

Brad, my vet just used an emory board to file the Arch's beaks with. It isn't as
difficult as it may seem and if only a bit at a time, not going too deep, you or you're coworker should be fine. Just have some Kwik Stop or white flour or your preference on hand just in case. Also wondering if some supplements might help this dove out seeing as it is somewhat of an "on-going trauma" related
injury. Also, maybe they should be separted when this occurs.

fp

[beausmammy]

hi Brad,
I am an absolute novice with birds, and generally rely on you lot for advice...but..I have a fantail with a similar problem...my husband holds her and I very gently..a tiny bit at a time, snip her beak with ordinary nail clippers (for people) I did it out of ignorance rather than experience. Everyone is probably going to be horrified...but it works fine for us...I leave her beak longer rather than shorter..but do it every couple of weeks.
hope this helps
Jayne

[Pigeonpal2002]

Thanks FP

Just I suppose when you've never done something, it's scary and especially since it's a beak (a bird's bread and butter virtually). I would guess I'd use a very fine grain emery board for this job.

I don't think that the male has been aggressive towards her since the intial injury, but I'm not sure...will ask her and see. I think that once you've got an overgrowth beak injury, doesn't it always need maintanence for the rest of the birds' life?

[feralpigeon]

For the overgrowth part yes, I was thinking about the inability for the mandibles
to maintain alignment and wondered if supplements might help to strengthen
ligaments much the same as a human might take when experiencing problems of the kind.

fp

[Pigeonpal2002]

Thanks Jayne,

That actually might be the best and quickest option actually. The mandibles are quite long and filing bit by bit, might be too slow and stressful. Perhaps snipping the ends off first, then filing the jagged ends down smooth might be best.

I'm just TERRIFIED to attempt it myself and because the dove seems so small and delicate. I'm used to dealing with very strong and LARGE pigeons! lol

Thanks for your idea as well, it's good to know that it could be easier than I'm anticipating. I'd like to save the woman an expensive trip and to my vet whom I'm still not overly happy with.

[Reti]

Before I started working at the vet's, when I was still a client there, I took in a bird with overgrown beak. I was told by my vet that they have to do anesthesia cause of the nerve supply that it is very painful (80$)
A few months ago I had to take in one of my doves with a scissored beak that had gotten excessively overgrown. The vet told me to hold the bird while he took the plier and just clipped the overgrown part of the beak. I was horrified, what about the painful nerve endings? Well, that is for clients. True my dove didn't flinch, was absolutely fine, even though she bled a little it was stopped with the styptic powder.
Ever since I am doing it myself at home.
Best to trim it when it is starting to grow a bit, it is much easier. I do it every couple of weeks.

Reti

[feralpigeon]

OMG, pliers? Well, the emory board gets quite a bit off at a time, but I really
don't know how much overgrowth you're talking about. A different vet told me
that by trimming the claws of a cat regulary, the area that is supplied by blood
won't extend as far, don't know if this is true or if it would be similar w/beak overgrowth?

fp

[Larry_Cologne]

Hello Pigeonpal2002,

I posted some photos (not the best quality) in a previous thread (Victor's "Introducing Beaksley") of a pigeon skull I saved from a pigeon mummy years ago.

If I can get better photos I will, but it is the best I could do at the time. I also have to locate the skull again.

The part of the beak which can be filed is almost like a fingernail at the tip of the beak, before you hit bone. In the photos the bone is white and the nail part is black. The black part is not solid, but a thin shell-like covering layered on the underlying bone. Perhaps my wording is redundant: layer, cover, shell, underlying.

The nail part has no nerves, just like our hair and fingernails. Cutting too much would probably be similar to when we cut our nails oo much. I filed the claws or toenails of our pigeon Pidgiepoo when he was growing quickly and he snagged his claws on the indoor-outdoor carpeting before he went outdoors. I used the groove on a diamond knife sharpener, which was for sharpening fishhooks and dart points. Worked quite well, and was gradual enough that there was no chance of overdoing it. A few strokes and it was done.

If you hold up a pigeon's claw so that it is back-lit, you can see the blood supply for the claw. I tried it again just now with my pigeon Wieteke, so that I don't stick my neck out and get my head chopped off. Scientific techniques and observations should be replicable by others under similar conditions. His beak was dark, couldn't tell much about blood supply. His claws were dark, and well-worn, but I could see through the last one or two millimeters (sixteenth of an inch or so) of the tip of the claw. The part that wasn't transparent was dark due to blood supply, I presume. I used a small LED light emitting diode flashlight.

(Diamond knife sharpener, picture, link: http://www.buckknives.com/catalog/detail/562/245).

The skull is of a full-sized pigeon. I found the mummy, which my wife made me discard seven or eight years ago (before I was rescuing pigeons) in June 1990 in the dust of a stone medieval bell tower stairway of a Catholic church in the Netherlands (Holland) near the German border.

The bone structure appears very delicate. There are three bones in the upper beak leading to the tip. a top central boe, lke the bridge of te nose, and two lower side bones. The lowr bone on the right side of the upper beak has been broken. Wheher this hapened before or after death I dont know. Microscopic examination would show signs of healing or lack of bone healing, but I don't think it is important right now. The bone is a mere sliver where the break is located. A dove would have even less bone mass, I would think.

The point I want to make is that filing may quickly remove the part of the beak that regenerates quickly with wear and tear. It would be akin to removing the fingernail of a human, which is itself rather thin, and there would be nothing left to regenerate.

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/attach...3&d=1137968674

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/attach...1&d=1137968495

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/attach...1&d=1137968467

Introducing Beakslet, thread
(http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=13598)

Also, I did some lengthy postings on pigeon Splitbeak, with a badly split upper beak.

Larry

[Pigeonpal2002]

Thanks Reti, thanks folks for all the input

This helps to ease my fears and even though I knew I *might* be able to do it, I was/am still scared. My coworker lives with her sister but her sister is out of town for at least a month. My coworker doesn't know a lot about doves and really...either does her sister

Perhaps I will make the attempt with the help of my co-worker holding the bird on the weekend. I might also pick up some things that might be beneficial and that I know they don't use, such as ACV, vitamins and get them to use a calcium source for the hen. In case you're wondering, I only found out not too long ago that her sister had doves and today was my second time at their house to see the doves...they are just precious little things and SOOOOOOO TAME!!!, even more tame than my own hand raised runts...go figure! lol

Thanks again for the advice

[Pigeonpal2002]

Thanks Larry,

Yes, that helps, those pictures are good to see. I am not so much worried about digging into the bone with the dove, as she's white and her beak is a little transluscent, so that will help too

[Lady Tarheel]

Brad, we have a little girl, Katrina, who is a crested "something" and fairly small. She developed a scissors beak a couple of years ago and the vet said just to watch it since she eats and drinks well. Sometimes it would look pretty bad and at other times it aligns up normally so we have left it at that. She has no mate so we know of nothing that would have caused it initially. When we wormed them all last week her beak was in almost perfect alignment.

[Reti]

Originally Posted by feralpigeon

OMG, pliers? Well, the emory board gets quite a bit off at a time, but I really
don't know how much overgrowth you're talking about. A different vet told me
that by trimming the claws of a cat regulary, the area that is supplied by blood
won't extend as far, don't know if this is true or if it would be similar w/beak overgrowth?

fp

That is true. Lucky's beak doesn't bleed now that i trim it regularly. And my cats claws are easy to trim since I do it every 10 days.

Reti

[John_D]

Our pigeon Piglet has a scissored and overgrown beak.. I know he's somewhat bigger than a dove, but the principle would be the same.

We use what is actually a long-handled toenail clipper to trim off the translucent part, then smooth it down with a small metal file.

Provided the overhang is not too downcurved, even with the scissored effect, he is well able to dig into a dish of food.. I thinkhe would have a problem foraging for single items straight off the floor, though.

[Pidgey]

Well, Brad, you said that it was more of a preening ability issue, right? In the big book (or one of them) it said something about correcting scissorbeak by way of doing daily physical therapy on them to straighten them up. I'd at least give that a shot for a couple of months while doing any other filing. Full correction to severe cases have been done before by way of gluing on some straightening hardware (like braces for teeth) and leaving it on for awhile. I seriously doubt this bird is anywhere near that bad, though. My impression is that a bird like John's Piglet shown above is capable of being straightened eventually by the physical therapy alone.

Pidgey