Extinction is forever

[mr squeaks]

Originally Posted by jameswaller

who opened this can of worms,..-call it what you want,,global-problem,whether its man made or not,.we are all in the same small ecoshere of life,it is changing,the weather patterns will be more extreme,the earth changes-the-last mini iceage 1315ad-to-1815ad-500 years long.,google 1815 the year without a summer,...man is the most adaptable mammal on the planet-but most of us will be gone-,the industrial revolution post 1815ad for which some of mankind progressed,has left said planet in a very sad state,,so where do we go from here,,we are all contributors-kneeling down is-not going to help,affirmitive action will cost/bankrupt any country,.we can slow the enivitable down,but we are-not going to stop it-big changes are coming-extinctions,are part of the cycle,..i think it helps to discuss this-however this is a website for life/about(pigeons)-,sincerely james waller

All part of this forum and the diversity of threads, James. And, PIGEONS are involved...

Circle of life...

Love and Hugs

Shi

[conditionfreak]

The number one rule of nature is "survival of the fit". (adaptability). Humans try and sometimes succeed in thwarting this rule of nature. We usually do it because we believe it is the humane or right thing to do. But how do we choose when, what and how?

Man has influence, but can not (we have tried over and over) best nature. As has been said by someone else earlier in this thread, everything comes to an end. It just comes down to when, where, why and how.

Sometimes it is better to let nature control itself, than for man to take the wheel. Species come and go. It is the way of earth. Sometimes it is a good thing that a species "goes" (maybe man made killer bees, or the Black Widow spider). Can you imagine if North America had T-Rex roaming the Midwest states?

Often you see documentaries on TV about a camera man following a motherless baby elephant or baby rhino, which is starving, around for weeks, until it dies of starvation or is killed by predators. I often watch and wonder why the camera man and his crew do not help the poor thing.

Their explanation is that because it is nature, it is the unwritten law of naturalist and those involved in this type of work that humans should not get involved if humans did not have a hand in what caused the problem in the first place. (ie: if poachers killed the mother elephant, then it would be alright and actually incumbent upon humans to help the baby. But if lions or disease killed the mother elephant, then humans should not get involved in saving the baby.)

I understand this "unwritten law" and guess it is probably a decent way of dealing with these types of situations. Although I can not "do nothing" myself, when a needing living thing comes before me. I know that most who frequent this web site feel the same way.

It is a quandry for sure. A personal decision each and every time.

Would you save a feral pigeon from the clutches of a Cooper's Hawk, if they were struggling in the grass, in a park, as you just happened to be walking by? Would you save a kitten being attacked by a Red Tail Hawk in a similar situation? Would you use a live minnow in an attempt to catch a bigger fish for sport or food? Would you save a grasshopper that was in the clutches of a Praying Mantis in your garden?

Hawks and Praying Mantis need to eat also.

Don't even get me started on Bull Fighting, Hunting and Trapping!

I don't know the answer to these types of questions, but I know what I can live with within myself. My own little world.

One of my personal interests is the "Thylacine" ( also known as the Tasmanian Tiger), which is allegedly extinct. Below is a link to a video of them while still alive. Fantastic creature. Some anecdotal evidence suggests that there may be some still around, but most likely not. When it went extinct, the earth did not change. Nature did not go topsy turvy. The circle of life was not greatly interupted. What happened is we simply feel bad about it. But life and earth goes on. With or without Tasmanian Tigers and mankind.

P.S. You will like this animal in the video. Facinating. "Possibly" still in existence (let's hope).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vqCCI1ZF7o

[SmithFamilyLoft]

Originally Posted by conditionfreak

......Species come and go. It is the way of earth. Sometimes it is a good thing that a species "goes" (maybe man made killer bees, or the Black Widow spider).....

Actually the human has gone to great lengths to try to destroy certain species....right now, we are trying to kill off the little bug known as "Swine Flu", as well as countless little critters which try to live within us, and on or in our dogs and cats, and many of the animals we find "favor" with, as well as countless little things which go bump in the dead of the night. I don't know why we shed a tear over one, and not the other. I guess it is human nature to want to feel in control of our universe. Some peoplle would use the less aceptable, and not politically correct term of "Play God". And that is why there are such political and religious overtones in all of this. It is a desire to feel some kind of meaning. Long after I am dead and gone, and my remains have turned to dust, I believe Mother Nature will win out, and we as a specie will face the same fate, like all the millions of species before us. It's debatable if as a specie, we can prolong that process, and none of us reading these pages will ever know the end result.

[conditionfreak]

Yep. Manure has just as important a function in nature, as does the horse.

It is not inconceivable that someday, there will be a group of people taking measures to "save the fleas and ticks".

Even ugly babies have someone who loves them. (I know I did)

Oh, by the way. I do know how it turns out. I and everyone else, and every living thing, dies. Every species is doomed to become extinct. "Forever" is a really, really, REALLY long time.

[Libis]

Thinking about the Passenger Pigeon, and looking at some photos of it brings back a memory.

I've gotta ask you guys if there are any similar-looking bird species in the plains states.

When I was a young teen, my cousin and I saw a pigeon/dove-shaped bird with a blue grey back and a yellow stomach. It was at least of pigeon size. I don't know anything of its behavior, as the cats got it. My cousin said she had never seen a bird like that before, and neither had I.

It just pokes at my brain how much it looked like pictures I've seen of "Martha" the last passenger pigeon. I know the chance of it having been one is almost nothing.

[UssChicago1]

I really enjoyed this thread. I think we should all do our best to help prevent extinction. Lately I have done a lot of research on the passenger pigeon. It is sad that when an animal is labeled a "pest" people don't feel bad killing that animal. But it has the same feelings as a dog, cat or pigeon feels !
-Mark in MA

[ptras]

Originally Posted by spirit wings

...well money gets in the way of that, it is "the root of all evil" as has been said.

Check the quote. It says "love of money is the root of all evil."

[SmithFamilyLoft]

Originally Posted by UssChicago1

I really enjoyed this thread. I think we should all do our best to help prevent extinction. Lately I have done a lot of research on the passenger pigeon. It is sad that when an animal is labeled a "pest" people don't feel bad killing that animal. But it has the same feelings as a dog, cat or pigeon feels ! -Mark in MA

I don't know about the preventing extinction thing, it is after all the way of nature. Species have come and gone for millions of years on this planet, just like someday we will join those species that have gone before us. I consider various viruses as pests, some of them kill people, I won't lose a wink of sleep either, if they along with the stink bug goes extinct. Don't really care if rats and the fleas that live on them go extinct either. And as far as "feelings" go, I could be wrong of course, but I am pretty sure that "feelings" are pretty much a human emotion. But, there will always be folks like my wife, who will carry a fly outside rather then swat it. I'm not gonna try to change that part of her, but I am not going to contribute to a "Save the Fly" fund either. Maybe when the fly get's hit with my fly swatter, it's "feelings" are hurt, don't know. I am sure some tax free save the fly group will get started some day...perhaps the President of that organization will make $400,000 as well, just like some of those "Save the XYZ" groups do. I hope I didn't offend any fly or flea lovers out there...but if I was going to contribute any time, money or energy to saving anything, it most likely would be humans, and not any kind of bug or animal, but hey, that's me.

[UssChicago1]

Originally Posted by SmithFamilyLoft

I don't know about the preventing extinction thing, it is after all the way of nature. Species have come and gone for millions of years on this planet, just like someday we will join those species that have gone before us. I consider various viruses as pests, some of them kill people, I won't lose a wink of sleep either, if they along with the stink bug goes extinct. Don't really care if rats and the fleas that live on them go extinct either. And as far as "feelings" go, I could be wrong of course, but I am pretty sure that "feelings" are pretty much a human emotion. But, there will always be folks like my wife, who will carry a fly outside rather then swat it. I'm not gonna try to change that part of her, but I am not going to contribute to a "Save the Fly" fund either. Maybe when the fly get's hit with my fly swatter, it's "feelings" are hurt, don't know. I am sure some tax free save the fly group will get started some day...perhaps the President of that organization will make $400,000 as well, just like some of those "Save the XYZ" groups do. I hope I didn't offend any fly or flea lovers out there...but if I was going to contribute any time, money or energy to saving anything, it most likely would be humans, and not any kind of bug or animal, but hey, that's me.

Yes, Your Definitely right about the "feelings", it may be just a human, but I look at it a slightly different way. Primates that have testing done, if you have ever seen pictures of it, there is no way you can deny that is doesn't have feelings. Same thing when a puppy looses its mother, or a hen looses a chick. I have been raising poultry for 10 years, and there have been times that there is no doubt (in my mind ) they have feelings. Some animals, like the California conure, cost something like two million(?) dollars per year to save. I think that is RIDICULOUS! Especially since they will never be able to a adapt in the now highly populated habit. But the American Bald eagle effort was money, and science, well spent !

But I do agree with you, many organizations are putting way to much into there presidents of highly paid CEO's, not right! A true reformer would go with less of a salary to help more animals!

[PoppyFieldVet]

Animal emotions is a very controversial but thought-provoking topic. What I find difficult is that we seem to have assumed that animals are "dumb" until proven "intelligent". Of course this is all difficult anyway as people define intelligence in different ways. From a biochemical point of view animals that appear very different to us are in fact very similar. For example, just this morning we had a pharmacology lecture on dopamine. This is a neurotransmitter which is released resulting in the "feel-good" feeling. All mammals have dopamine and equivalent feel good centres have been found in their brains too. Scientifically we could therefore assume that these animals are capable of emotions very similar, if not identical to our own. Dopamine has even been found to be important in fly physiology, so who knows what they are feeling.
Personally I believe in a balance, we are brought up in a human world where we have been taught to compare everything to ourselves. Those of us who have dogs know what each behaviour means. I think most of us will also find we can read pigeon body language too. People tend to doubt emotions and consciousness in animals we cannot physically "read" and animals which society has taught us are dumb or unclean, hence homo-sapien's concept of pests of vermin. Can we truly say that just because we cannot read the body language of a snake or lizard that it is not capable of emotion. Does it truly mean fly's feel no emotion because we cannot relate to them. Anthropomorphism is a word commonly used about now, because you could say I am assuming animals feel "human" emotions. But don't we do this to each other all the time. We have no way of proving that each of us is feeling the same emotions. In a way we could assume what appears to be "emotion" in our friends, is in fact a learned biological pathway which illicit's a behavioural response (including speech) which we read as emotion. More and more scientists are having to accept that animal behaviour is being proven to be like our own. Just last week a phD student from Bristol (yay!) discovered chickens are capable of what we describe as empathy.
When I'm trying to explain my point of view I find it most difficult to talk to atheists about it, as everything is evidence based. Being that we can't even 100% prove emotion in humans what hope do I have of convincing them of animals having them?!
I believe animals have a soul, and that intelligence, memory, thought etc. is in that soul. I still think I will be able to think, love and feel after I die. I think animals will too. I believe animals on earth are restricted physically from showing emotions to US but that that doesn't mean they don't have them.

In terms of extinction, well, we're not in a good way at the moment. Human beings have separated themselves from the rest of the animal kingdom and from nature. We also talk about it as though we aren't part of it. I think we most definitely are. The human led world we have created has a very limited tolerance of other species. We always blame human-wildlife conflict on the animals, and our solution is to eradicate them. A few years ago I tried to argue my case for some pigeons in north Cyprus which were nesting in a holiday complex. The poo was causing this particular person alot of apparent distress to the point she really wanted them all to be shot. There is no way we can control where a bird lands, or where it happens to defecate, yet as a human being her immediate reaction was to have them killed. There's nothing to stop the next bird coming along and pooping on her roof terrace, so the only was to solve her problem would be to kill all birds. Of course she didn't say this, but we ought to be more tolerant.
By very definition (An annoying, harmful, often destructive creature) we are the worlds most prolific pest. Not all extinction is down to us, but alot is and in order to make a real difference each of us need to change. There's alot publicised about the palm oil trade and how we, as consumers, can make a difference. The importance of all species in biodiversity and ecosystems cannot be forgotten. Protecting insects can be just as important, if not more so, than protecting the more iconic species.
Seeing the species of birds we have already lost makes light of what can happen to species we take for granted.
Regardless of what causes the extinction, becoming more tolerant, active protectors and ultimately stewards of our amazing planet, I feel, is essential.

Wouldn't it be lovely to imaging that humans truly become part of nature in the future, and reduce this separation we have built up.